What should the gummint spend money on, and what shouldn't it?

[sexual_chocolate]

Plus, as any thinking human would quickly figger out, the voucher system would be unconstitutional, since 90% of private schools are faith-based. I don't want my tax dollars paying someone to preach the holy bible (and creationism) to impressionable kids, thank you very much.

[Fence_Sitter]

quote:

---

FS, please stay in school. Don't forget to take some Poli Sci and Econ, and maybe a little English 99 wouldn't hurt either. [Wink]

---

uh yeah...hmmm i'm sure you think your grasp of politics and economics are superior to mine cause they are different... hmm...you call conservatives biggoted? i suggest you take a rhetoric course as you have no grasp of how to conduct an aggument...as boring as mtngoat is, at least the fucker can refute points...all you can do is call names and then whine when the shit you threw gets thrown back at you...fancy you telling me to keep in school when you couldn't even hack it enough to get an undergrad... oh and about my spelling...i'm sorry i dont run my shit through a spell checker...i dont have the time to say FUCK YOU ALLISON in stead of fahq yuo awwison... but you still ge teh point right?

[Fence_Sitter]

quote:

---

Plus, as any thinking human would quickly figger out, the voucher system would be unconstitutional, since 90% of private schools are faith-based. I don't want my tax dollars paying someone to preach the holy bible (and creationism) to impressionable kids, thank you very much.

---

i addressed that 3 pages ago... i think you need to re-read the separation of church and state clause...and why dont yuo read it to allison...she needs some help every now adn again..

[sexual_chocolate]

Whether or not you addressed said issue really isn't the point, now is it? There are many issues you have addressed, to my dismay and humorous delight. Surprise me sometime by addressing an issue with something approaching intelligence, ok?

 

BTW, I couldn't help myself. I read back over the posts, looking for your "address". Couldn't find it. Oh well, I suppose I'll just have to imagine what you'd say; shouldn't be too difficult!

[allison]

Actually my grasp of politics is superior to yours because I've been serving almost non-stop in elected positions since I was party chair of the McGovern committee in my first grade class.

 

For the record, it wasn't my best moment for service and leadership, we lost 7-14 to the Nixon camp, though it may have been along the party lines of the parents!

[shuksan]

Jim said:

quote:

---

Talk to your kids school teachers. I assume you have none in pubic school, or you're not connected to them, otherwise you might show some knowledge on the subject

---

Ouch!! I suppose I also have to have family members on welfare to have an opinion on that, too... Actually, I have two kids who will be going to public school after they're out of diapers. Meanwhile I'm visiting the park and zoo more often than climbing.

 

Jim went on:

quote:

---

If students left for private school because of vouchers then the cost per student would rise because of the loss of state supplied income, loss of federal contribution, and the fixed costs of facilities, heating, lights, janitors, etc. ... Private schools are dealing with a much smaller piece of the pie, usually white, middle to upper class, with a supportive homelife.

---

At least in cases where vouchers have been tried, the facts don't support the claim of rising cost per student. The Cleveland voucher program ('97-'98)takes $2250 out of the school's budget for each student in the program. That comes out of the $2800 per pupil the school gets from the state, leaving the school holding the remaining $550 in state money. In addition, the school keeps $4600 local money for each departed pupil. Per student public school expenses break down at $4200 instructional and $2700 support services, and $200 misc. (from www.ode.state.oh.us)

Clearly the $ the school keeps far exceeds all possible fixed costs. Similarly, in Milwaukee ('96-'97), the voucher cost to a school was $4400, which is subtracted from the $7500 taken in by the school. In any case, fixed costs are indeed not so fixed - here in PDX we're closing schools down to avoid laying off teachers and/or fixing the retirement system.

 

The comments about typical private school makeup certainly don't reflect the reality of real voucher programs either. Cleveland targets 90% of vouchers to those under 200% of federal poverty level, while Milwaukee requires all participants to be less than 175% of FPL. Of the participating catholic schools in Cleveland, 59% of their students are below the federal poverty level. These are the people least able to "use their power as citizens to make their school better", as allison asks of them. They are also the ones most likely to benefit from vouchers.

[allison]

Oh no, did Greg's 'fuck the poor' thing go global on us?

 

I could have sworn poor people had the same rights as citizens to stand up for the needs of the electorate as rich people....ESPECIALLY AT THE LOCAL LEVEL. Did I miss something?

 

In any case, hell is going to freeze over before I support paying for other people to send their kids to private school.

[shuksan]

allison,

I didn't say the poor don't have the same rights as the rich, just that they are likely to be less able to assert those rights. Perhaps you're aware of 'legal-aid' programs that are set up specifically to help level the playing field in this respect? Before the Cleveland voucher program, the graduation rate was 32% -- do you really think the parents of these kids have the time/ability to be active in PTA programs, raise money for a school band, or challenge school administrators? They're too busy trying to keep food on the table.

[allison]

OK, fair enough. You make a fair argument for the poor and their leisure time. Poor people don't have a lot of leisure time, unless they are lazy poor people, oh wait, never mind....

 

This leads me to a question: are there any voucher programs that only make vouchers available to people unable to afford to send their kids to private school? I don't think it would sway me to the other side of the voucher argument, but I think a lot of people look at vouchers as a kind of welfare program for the rich, and might consider it a valid idea in this context.

 

On a completely different topic about wanting the government to hand out money, is there a program that provides $ to people who can't work due to non-L and I disability? I'm looking at being unable to work in my trade for about three months, and am not sure if I'll be able to land another job while I'm recovering. The financial hit could be pretty devastating if no job or other assistance is available....

[MtnGoat]

"Couldn't let these shaky numbers pass. Budgets at all time highs? Are you nuts? Maybe if you don't adjust for inflation."

 

You show me yours and I'll show you mine. Then we can argue about whose sources are biased.

 

"I assume you have none in pubic school, or you're not connected to them, otherwise you might show some knowledge on the subject."

 

You assume incorrectly. Disagreement with you does not indicate a lack of knowledge.

 

"It takes more money in public school to address these special needs with language teachers and special education teachers that private schools don't have to worry about."

 

Private schools offer special needs classes same as any other schools.

 

"I have no problem with private schools mind you. Just don't come asking for a government handout to go. If you want to go, have at it."

 

You certainly expect a handout to educate kids the way *you* want them educated, there's no reason the "handouts" shouldn't go to anyone who wants them, because your view of what public education should be is just that, your personal view, not an absolute, same as any parent choosing a private or religious school.

 

No one should be forced to pay for state schools wether they use them or not and then also have to pay *again* to use another option. Vouchers are open to question because of the complaints about the funding of religious schools, yet what I see taught at my daughters school is merely secular religion. With "society" as god.

[MtnGoat]

"Plus, as any thinking human would quickly figger out, the voucher system would be unconstitutional, since 90% of private schools are faith-based. I don't want my tax dollars paying someone to preach the holy bible (and creationism) to impressionable kids, thank you very much. "

 

You certainly don't mind *taking* those tax dollars from religious folks, doing so and then not allowing them to use those same dollars as they see fit, instead of you, is pretty lopsided.

 

You sure don't mind the cash, but by golly if they expect to get what *you* want out of it too, kids educated the way you/they want, it's just radical and unfair. I say your forcing them to pay to support education by your social standards is every bit as arbitrary.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[allison]

So Goat, by your logic, then, should everyone pay for their kids' education? Seems to me that you would suggest relieving the tax burden for childless people like myself with regard to education.

 

50 words or less, please. I went to public school, and my reading comprehension is, well, you know!

[MtnGoat]

"So Goat, by your logic, then, should everyone pay for their kids' education?"

 

In a manner of speaking, of course they should. But this doesn't mean folks can't pool their money via govt collection for education styles they favor, only that you should be allowed to decide which style you intend to support. I'm sure lots of folks would support paying extra for folks who can't afford what they wish to choose, given that they get to choose what style that is.

 

I wouldn't mind paying into a system with *truly* secular education, with no political viewpoints injected into social studies and moral issues, and even I would pay extra to fund lower income folks who wanted that education.

 

"Seems to me that you would suggest relieving the tax burden for childless people like myself with regard to education."

 

I don't see why not, since I don't view compulsive taxation on issues like this as a good thing.

[z]

quote:

---

Originally posted by mtnrgr:

According to an Executive order (I think made by Carter) U.S. military forces are not allowed to act in police roles inside the US.

 

Nor are they able to assassinate foriegn officials. The US still has to follow our own constition and laws.

 

We don't need more covert paramilitary groups. HRT works great in the States, and other units work overseas. We need better intellingence, ecspecially HUMINT, for these units to proform properlly.

SFOD has operated for a number of years inside the US despite the intricacies of Posse C. Primarily in advisory roles. Several advisors were present at WACO. HRT has been used overseas in Pakistan and several other countries.

 

We do need expanded covert units hence the increase in recruiting for 18 and 97X series billets.

 

Recent laws have amended the assissination order, but still excludes sovereign heads of state.

 

HUMINT has always been overlooked, but several recent actions have utilized human intelligence with success.

 

Stand down leg.

[Jim]

Well, here's the results of the Cleveland and Milwaukee experiment. Hardly a success.

 

In Milwaukee, fewer than one-fourth of voucher students in 1998 had come from a public school the previous year. (In Cleveland, only a third of the voucher students came from the public schools.) While the Milwaukee program drained tens of millions of dollars from the city's schools budget, each public school lost an average of only nine students - hardly enough for any school to save money by cutting maintenance or laying off teachers.

 

A state audit showed that the Cleveland voucher program spun out of control in its first year (1996-97), exceeding its budget by 41 percent. The audit found $2 million in "questionable" expenses, including taxis to transport children to private schools. All the voucher funds are subtracted from state aid to disadvantaged children. In fact, in 1998 Ohio spent more per-pupil tax money on each of its 3,000 voucher students than it spent for the 1.6 million children who attend public schools in the state. That's inexcusable.

 

Did performance improve? For five years, a state-appointed researcher in Milwaukee studied voucher students' test scores but could not see any appreciable academic gains. Meanwhile, four of the city's 18 voucher schools collapsed under charges of mismanagement by 1996. As for Cleveland, the Plain Dealer reported in 1999 that controls on the program were so lax that five voucher schools had operated for years without charters, in decrepit and dangerous buildings. One of the schools kept a convicted killer on its faculty. "It's gone on too long," a state education official said of the abuses, "and we need to put a stop to this."

[Jim]

The GAO also says the previously cited numbers are fuzzy. But that's ok, as long as their used to make a point. There's a great book "Through the Looking Glass" that talks about how the media and talk show folks use statistics. Very enlightening

 

GAO: Page 22 GAO-01-914 Publicly Funded Voucher Programs

 

The Cleveland voucher program is funded from the Cleveland public school district’s share of state Disadvantaged Pupil Impact Aid, based on

an annual appropriation determined by the Ohio legislature. For the 1999–

2000 school year, the legislature appropriated $11.2 million for the Cleveland voucher program. Based on this appropriation, the Cleveland

school district’s $80.5 million in Disadvantaged Pupil Impact Aid was reduced by $11.2 million to $69.3 million. School district officials stated that the district has not obtained additional property tax levies for the purpose

of recovering state revenue deductions from the district’s Disadvantaged Pupil Impact Aid funds. According to these officials, the last major schoollevy for funding school operations was passed in 1996 and provided $67 million to the district annually over a period of 5 years.

 

The state of Wisconsin funds the Milwaukee voucher program from a separate general-purpose revenue appropriation. The state deducts the

amount of the appropriation from general school aid payments to all 426 school districts statewide. Once the state determines the total amount needed to fund the voucher program for the year, it reduces the aid payable to the Milwaukee public school district by half that amount. The other half of program funding is drawn from aid authorized for the remaining 425 school districts in proportion to the total state aid to which each district is entitled. The school districts have the option of increasing property tax levies to offset reductions in general state aid related to the

voucher program. According to a Milwaukee school district official, the district has generally levied taxes to the maximum extent possible under

state school revenue limits. For the 1999–2000 school year, the Milwaukee school district absorbed half of the voucher program’s $38.9 million cost.

[sexual_chocolate]

"You certainly don't mind *taking* those tax dollars from religious folks, doing so and then not allowing them to use those same dollars as they see fit, instead of you, is pretty lopsided.

 

You sure don't mind the cash, but by golly if they expect to get what *you* want out of it too, kids educated the way you/they want, it's just radical and unfair. I say your forcing them to pay to support education by your social standards is every bit as arbitrary."

 

Separation of church and state.

Nothing arbitrary about this.

 

Those founding fathers sure were smart ones.