Fabrics for Custom Packs

[mountainmandoug]

In response to Grahm's post on Cuben magic cloth, I think it's worth noting that Z-packs doesn't promise that much durability, and I don't think that they actually provide a warranty.

 

I'm honestly surprised to see cuben used by this many pack makers, as it has some huge challenges in that application. One new company has resorted to developing a new modified fabric with a layer of woven nylon in the mix to make a better pack fabric. Only time and experience will tell. I think at this point the two people with the most knowledge of making things out of that stuff are probably Ron Bell at Mountain Laurel Designs and Graham at Cilo gear, and they both remark on how tricky it was to figure it out.

 

Personally, I've always wondered if a lighter woven spectra fabric might be the best way to build lighter packs, maybe a 40-denier spectra or dynema with a silicone coating? I've never heard of such a fabric though.

[yasso1am]

I am not going to pro deal a pack because I'm going with a Cold Cold World pack and they don't offer pro deal.

So because I'm spending a little more money for a custom pack, I figured I would pick the most appropriate pack. I fully expect this to last me many, many seasons.

 

Get what Randy recommends to you. A) It will make his life a bit easier and B) he knows what materials fit his style.

 

Randy is a good guy and makes solid packs. You won't go wrong.

 

Way to support your competitor! I really respect your neutrality, even though Randy is one of the few people up there making pack's like yours. For sure picking up a Cilogear after this one. Thanks for your input crackers. Will probably be talking to you soon.

[layton]

thanks!

[crackers]

Way to support your competitor! I really respect your neutrality, even though Randy is one of the few people up there making pack's like yours. For sure picking up a Cilogear after this one. Thanks for your input crackers. Will probably be talking to you soon.

 

Hey, I appreciate it, but I don't see CCW as competitive to CiloGear at all. Randy makes packs that are durable over light. We do crazy stuff, and strive to balance weight with durability. I think that the lightest CCW pack is 2x the weight of the heaviest of our packs in each size range. That's huge and that says a TON about how the two companies see the world. The two mentalities are, if anything, complementary. Or at least that's my $0.02.

[crackers]

In response to Graham's post on Cuben magic cloth, I think it's worth noting that Z-packs doesn't promise that much durability, and I don't think that they actually provide a warranty.

 

Cubic.

 

CiloGear doesn't offer a warranty on the NWD packs either. Just accounting for it on our balance sheet would put us out of business. The CT5K.18 is really surprisingly durable in the rock/alpine world, but it's too easily destroyed for something you sell. We've made packs made from featherweight materials for our athletes, but we stopped going down that road because you didn't really win that much weight for all the durability you give up.

 

I've got to remind the world that we've been working with CT very closely to get this stuff right for over four years. We tried more than 25 different stock materials before getting to where we were two years ago.

 

I'm honestly surprised to see cuben used by this many pack makers, as it has some huge challenges in that application. One new company has resorted to developing a new modified fabric with a layer of woven nylon in the mix to make a better pack fabric. Only time and experience will tell. I think at this point the two people with the most knowledge of making things out of that stuff are probably Ron Bell at Mountain Laurel Designs and Graham at Cilo gear, and they both remark on how tricky it was to figure it out.

 

Basically, it outperforms anything else at the same weight. Period. It is a monstrous pain to get the manufacturing dialed in, but now that we developed a how-to book, I think you'll see more and more of it in the market. Folks using our NWD packs have won Piolet D'Ors, golden piton awards, done many many many first ascents in AK, WA, CO, Argentina and the himalayas.

 

IMHO, our solution is totally superior to a nylon scrim. Our scrim material -- used in the crampon pouch and the front panels of the packs and a few other spots -- offers superior UV degradation, better abrasion resistance, doesn't absorb any water (nylon scrims definitely do), and better load transfer. Oh, I did try nylons and corduras, but they kinda suck in comparison to what we use.

 

Personally, I've always wondered if a lighter woven spectra fabric might be the best way to build lighter packs, maybe a 40-denier spectra or dynema with a silicone coating? I've never heard of such a fabric though.

 

Good luck. You probably won't. AFAIK, the best weaver of Dyneema/Spectra doesn't do anything thinner than 140d. We actually are working on a really light something, and you might see it next spring. But don't hold your breath! (The cost of the damn stuff is probably going to between insane and inappropriate.) We're also supposed to get some samples of a 40d ish Dyneema that's not a traditional woven.

 

Oh, and it's pretty much impossible to get Dyneema and Silicon to stick together without an encapsulation...

[mountainmandoug]

In response to Graham's post on Cuben magic cloth, I think it's worth noting that Z-packs doesn't promise that much durability, and I don't think that they actually provide a warranty.

 

Cubic.

 

CiloGear doesn't offer a warranty on the NWD packs either. Just accounting for it on our balance sheet would put us out of business. The CT5K.18 is really surprisingly durable in the rock/alpine world, but it's too easily destroyed for something you sell. We've made packs made from featherweight materials for our athletes, but we stopped going down that road because you didn't really win that much weight for all the durability you give up.

 

I've got to remind the world that we've been working with CT very closely to get this stuff right for over four years. We tried more than 25 different stock materials before getting to where we were two years ago.

 

I'm honestly surprised to see cuben used by this many pack makers, as it has some huge challenges in that application. One new company has resorted to developing a new modified fabric with a layer of woven nylon in the mix to make a better pack fabric. Only time and experience will tell. I think at this point the two people with the most knowledge of making things out of that stuff are probably Ron Bell at Mountain Laurel Designs and Graham at Cilo gear, and they both remark on how tricky it was to figure it out.

 

Basically, it outperforms anything else at the same weight. Period. It is a monstrous pain to get the manufacturing dialed in, but now that we developed a how-to book, I think you'll see more and more of it in the market. Folks using our NWD packs have won Piolet D'Ors, golden piton awards, done many many many first ascents in AK, WA, CO, Argentina and the himalayas.

 

IMHO, our solution is totally superior to a nylon scrim. Our scrim material -- used in the crampon pouch and the front panels of the packs and a few other spots -- offers superior UV degradation, better abrasion resistance, doesn't absorb any water (nylon scrims definitely do), and better load transfer. Oh, I did try nylons and corduras, but they kinda suck in comparison to what we use.

 

Personally, I've always wondered if a lighter woven spectra fabric might be the best way to build lighter packs, maybe a 40-denier spectra or dynema with a silicone coating? I've never heard of such a fabric though.

 

Good luck. You probably won't. AFAIK, the best weaver of Dyneema/Spectra doesn't do anything thinner than 140d. We actually are working on a really light something, and you might see it next spring. But don't hold your breath! (The cost of the damn stuff is probably going to between insane and inappropriate.) We're also supposed to get some samples of a 40d ish Dyneema that's not a traditional woven.

 

Oh, and it's pretty much impossible to get Dyneema and Silicon to stick together without an encapsulation...

 

A really light something that costs somewhere between insane and inappropriate? You never let it stop you before Graham. At this point my budget makes me just a spectator in the the whole high-tech-pack-fabric market, but it's interesting none the less. I'll look forward to seeing what you come up with.

[crackers]

A really light something that costs somewhere between insane and inappropriate? You never let it stop you before Graham. At this point my budget makes me just a spectator in the the whole high-tech-pack-fabric market, but it's interesting none the less. I'll look forward to seeing what you come up with.

 

heh heh heh...I actually have been stopped by costs before! When we tried to reorder woven Dyneema last year, we were quoted $350k for a production lot.

 

We pay over $70 a yard for the NWD, we were paying $55 for some and $112 for other woven dyneema, and I think this new stuff will be stupidly expensive! We'll see if the weavers ever make it though...