Who's the best climber in the state of Washington?

[slaphappy]

I apoligize for calling Peter your hero, I was just responding to your comment about my "superhero list". Bryan would not be classified as my hero, but his accomplishments in the local climbing community are noteworthy. I read the splatter about bolts. I saw 10-20 people (hardly a representation of the climbing community)who had a strong dislike for them. I see mobs of people clipping them. (a much larger representation of the climbing community) There is soooo much rock and only a small portion of it is climbable, only an even smaller portion of the climbable rock has bolts. In the big picture of life, just like personal achievements, bolts are inconsequential. Climbers will never "grid" all the rock, because most of it is not climbable. (accept perhaps by a couple of Eastern Washington "painters") The reason no one justifies bolts to you is because no one has too! Who are you? Oh and I won't talk about your arrogance or your package. Although I don't know you personally I know someone who has climbed with you and he actually vouches for you as a climber and a person. (He did mention that you certainly aren't as bold as your "spray" would lead me to believe.) Since I haven't been to exit 38 or 32 in a number of years I am not familiar with the "glue" sign. There is room for all styles of climbing. I spent the last 5 days climbing cracks and the previous five clipping bolts, I am a climber and found enjoyment in both.

[pope]

I find enjoyment in both types of climbing, but then not everything that's enjoyable is right. It would be fun to ride a motorcycle around Mt.Rainier's Spray Park, but you wouldn't want to see that either (I hope). Let's keep in mind that top-roping a difficult face climb is nearly as challenging and probably every bit as enjoyable as clipping unsightly bolts. Once you put them in, you've made the mountains ugly forever. Is that really worth the satisfaction you get?

Regarding my boldness: I'm not a bold climber, and compared to what some have done, maybe I never was. These days I certainly play a cautious game...my kid has got to eat! If you're really worried about it, I left you a private message about some of the bold/stupid things I have done. But being a bold climber is not a prerequisite for disdaining bolts: many climbers and nonclimbers simply want to stop the trend of making our cliffs look like a construction project, like the side of a building. When a face climb is too bold for me, I either find an easier/safer one, or I top-rope it. I think arrogance is expressed when people smack in a bolt in the name of getting in a guidebook, or in the name of "community service" (what a joke).

[slaphappy]

You are correct Pope, I have no intrest in seeing motorcycles or MacDonalds in Mt. Rainier National Park. (although a Whole Foods might be nice after a long day or two!) But if that's what the majority of people want I would live with it. Unless it was built at Camp Hazard or Muir it would effect me little.

Although I do not agree with you that bolts are ugly, I do believe there are places they do not belong. I don't know why the two gentlemen decided Dan's Dreadful needed to be "safer". It is jammed in there pretty tight and has been lead multiples of times on gear. (I have a friend who did it) There are many new lines that could be done instead, not on Castle Rock. Although I don't necessarily care that it has been bolted, I do care if it gets chopped. This would start an even more destructive and unsightly trend. Look, for example, at the fine mess on "Whipsaw" at the coulee or "Cunning Stunt" at Index, both popular routes that are visible by nonclimbers. This kind of argumentation between climbers does neither side any good! To a nonclimber this "fight" would appear both destructive and comical. If climbers want to reduce the number of bolts to improve the appearance I suggest CAREFUL removal of pointless bolts, such as abandoned lead bolt projects (all over Leavenworth and Index) or routes that are climbed so infrequently you need to wade through knee deep moss to clip. (right hand side of Private Idaho) And possibly an agreement by bolters to do a better job matching the rock with hangers and chains, particularly where they will be seen by nonclimbers. (This was achieved by the retroers of D.D.D.) Just a thought.

[pope]

Enjoyed your post. I think you and I are a little off the subject, but what the heck. I personally have placed only three lead protection bolts in Leavenworth. Two were placed on the lead on a challenging climb...I just wanted to see if I could do it, and I thought the line was cool. In retrospect, I crowded them a little too close to another route, and I've only climbed this thing a couple of times since. I've never chopped a route, but I am going to spend some quality time this summer doing EXACTLY what you suggested: cautiously removing bolts from a couple of climbs in Leavenworth, starting with my own. I placed 5-piece Rawls which are pretty easy to remove, and the holes should be easy to restore. Although I feel like lead bolting is legitimate, I think my climb (and a couple of retro-projects) are really stupid. Don't worry, I won't make a mess because you're right: chopping gets ugly.

I do know a few climbers who feel like it's the only option, since bolts tend to grow more rapidly and randomly than dandelions.

[slaphappy]

You are correct, we are way off subject, my apologies to the readers. One last clarification, I did not EXACTLY mean chop a retroed climb you feel is stupid. I meant more of a "clean-up of unfinished buisness", unless, (of course) it's your own route.

[This message has been edited by slaphappy (edited 06-12-2001).]

[Peter_Puget]

Slappy you refer to a "fine mess" at Index caused by the removal of bolts on Cunning Stunt. Implying strongly that said mess was easily visible by non climbers. Eaxcly where is the mess I have been there several times recently and have missed the "fine mess."

[Chongo]

Did anyone mention Pete Doorish?