Lafayette Posted October 12, 2009 Posted October 12, 2009 Hey all, This weekend I attempted the Emmons-Winthrop route on Rainier. The climb was enjoyable, great weather, great company, and great views. But no summit, so the proverbial monkey is still on my back. I do have a couple of questions, and if you've got a minute to you think you could lend your advice? The reason we didn't climb, was that after making it to Camp Schurman we found the glacier to be 100% solid glacial ice. Better for mixing in a drink, than for a snow picket. We decided not to ascend because if either of us fell in a crevasse, there would be no ability to build an anchor to pull the other out. The pickets were rendered completely useless. In this situation, should we each be carrying two ice screws to build an anchor? In summer, the route wouldn't have been a problem for either of us. In fact, I felt climbing around the ice provided better traction than a small layer of snow. My second question is. For winter climbs, is an alpine start needed? When the daytime high is like 20 deg, won't that negate most rock/ice fall? Can I leave camp at 5 am and be back doing the whole trip in day light. Thanks, Will Quote
cbcbd Posted October 12, 2009 Posted October 12, 2009 Unless it is pure snow I like to carry 2 screws, a shorty and a longer for making v-threads. You take whatever pro is appropriate for the conditions. I'm guessing the top half of Rainier would've taken pickets right now. Alpine start - probably true, and you can have rock/ice fall happen at night during the coldest of times when water and ice are expanding, but I'd rather start early to give myself plenty of daylight usage - winter days are much shorter and I'd rather start in the dark than finish in the dark. Plus, you want to get out before the bar closes. Quote
selkirk Posted October 12, 2009 Posted October 12, 2009 Ice screws would have been a better option for an anchor but you have to careful with direction of pull and all sorts of other things. You could also use a V thread if the ice is solid enough. Probably a more important question would be, if you're buddy had fallen into a crevasse do you think you would have been able to go into self arrest and stop the fall in those conditions? Quote
grandpa Posted October 12, 2009 Posted October 12, 2009 Ice screws would have been a better option for an anchor but you have to careful with direction of pull and all sorts of other things. You could also use a V thread if the ice is solid enough. ... Ok, another newbie question: what's a v-thread in this context? I've never been on a glacier (but like Mountain Dew in the newbies forum), I will some day, so I'm learning whatever I can now. thanks in advance Quote
Jason_Martin Posted October 12, 2009 Posted October 12, 2009 How to Build a V-Thread Ice Anchor The Ice Bollard Jason Quote
Lafayette Posted October 12, 2009 Author Posted October 12, 2009 Thanks for the insight. I now have a better understanding of the late autumn glacier conditions. As for arresting, that's a question that we discussed. I like to think that I could. However reading has suggested un-roping in very icy conditions. I should have practiced some self-arrests on the stuff before hand. The route is well within my ability during the summer. The changing will have to be matched with a change in gear. For a successful trip I'll need ice screws, and ice tools. Quote
selkirk Posted October 12, 2009 Posted October 12, 2009 If you do have to arrest in those conditions be sure you get off your toes and onto your knees. Catching a crampon on the ice during a slide is a great way to break an ankle. It's a bit counter intuitive but in some conditions unroping can be safer than roping up. If you are roping up and can't arrest a fall then you should really be putting in ice screws for a running belay. There were a couple of accidents three or four years ago on Liberty Ridge and Mt. Hood that were exacerbated by people being roped up on terrain where they could not self arrest and also not placing any gear for a running belay. Eventually somebody slipped and took the rest of the rope team with them. Good Luck and be safe! Quote
grandpa Posted October 12, 2009 Posted October 12, 2009 How to Build a V-Thread Ice Anchor The Ice Bollard Jason Ah, got it. I've seen that before, but completely forgot about that. The snow around here is either heavy and wet (first fall or last spring snowfall), or frozen grains of snowbits that blow around like sand when it's 20-30 below zero, and do not really adhere to each other enough for any structural support. thanks, Dave Quote
Bug Posted October 12, 2009 Posted October 12, 2009 ....As for arresting, that's a question that we discussed. I like to think that I could. However reading has suggested un-roping in very icy conditions. I should have practiced some self-arrests on the stuff before hand. .... I like to think I could too but the reality is, you are moving really fast really soon and then you are pretty much screwed (whether you have screws or not). A fall on hard ice/snow has to be stopped immediately. Your likelyhood of stopping a fall into a crevass hoovers near zero after 2 or 3 seconds. Good call not going up! Quote
cbcbd Posted October 12, 2009 Posted October 12, 2009 The route is well within my ability during the summer. The changing will have to be matched with a change in gear. For a successful trip I'll need ice screws, and ice tools. One shouldn't need ice tools for the Emmons route - it just doesn't get that steep for "piolet traction". Honestly, if the glacier is pure ice then it is probably very dry. If it is very dry then crevasses should be visible and obvious. If they are visible and obvious then you shouldn't be falling into one by surprise. If you are feeling uncomfortable on the icy terrain I would recommend more crampon practice and possibly try some ice climbing. I find that a lot of people place too much emphasis on practicing self-arrest and not enough on just good crampon technique. Quote
Mike Barter Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Will Why do people generally fall in crevasses? Is it because the glacier is bare ice and we can see all the crevasses coming from 50 meters away or is it because the glacier is snow covered and the crevasses are bridged and we don't know where they are. In the case you are describing my peeps and I walk up the glacier in crampons rope in the pack. You should always be carrying a ice screw on the glacier. Pop through a bridge and if you are close enough to the sidewall you may want to sink that puppy and tie off till your sure that your bro's have a anchor constructed. Been in a one crevasse over the last couple decades. I don't scare real easy but I found the event a bit unnerving. somewhere on this site is a video of me taken seconds after being hauled out. Quote
Bug Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Thanks for the tip. The Phillips will be just what I need. Quote
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