Dual vs. Monopoint ... Leashed v.s Leashless

[dan_e]

I've been at this game 19 years, five of those years have been with Nomics. I can say without a doubt the past five years have been the most enjoyable.

 

I climb more efficently with leashless tools which means I can climb harder routes with a larger margin of safety. I was about as resistant to leashless as you could imagine. Five years ago I was still caught up in the 'old school' ways, I am so glad those days are long over.

 

Here's a glimpse of those days long forgotten. I was wearing my 'new' footfangs that day, but I started ice climbing using Salewa Messner Scissors.

 

[dan_e]

I'm going to be leashless in about one week, pretty stoked.

 

I have to say the whole leash thing kinda freaked me out, being pumped stupid and tied to my tools, circulation cut off, all the wriggling in and out of em to get in pro, etc.

 

That being said i'm not sure how I am going to react to that first day, I am thinking I'll be really focused on hauling ass, which is a nice way to dance on--instead of hack up--the ice.

 

PS I'm switching to horizontal front points!

 

Thinner gloves are going to be fun tho, I'm SURE I'll like that!

 

Why horizontals? maybe for alpine mixed, but on pure ice routes you will quickly learn they fracture the ice more and do not 'stick' in the ice like monos do. Look at your ice picks, they are designed that way for a reason. Using monos is basically like having picks on your feet!

[Dane]

This from Will Gadd..who can climb in anything he wants...but chooses to climb on Horizontals.

 

 

"Just use the Sabertooths--I've used them to climb m12, WI as hard as it gets, high altitude, logging, great all-purpose rigs as you note. And yep, if crampons get too light then they stop working..."

[dan_e]

Just the thought of seeing my Darts scared 'dane' away! Yes I saw your original post.

 

Edited December 2, 2010 by dan_e

[dan_e]

This from Will Gadd..who can climb in anything he wants...but chooses to climb on Horizontals.

 

 

"Just use the Sabertooths--I've used them to climb m12, WI as hard as it gets, high altitude, logging, great all-purpose rigs as you note. And yep, if crampons get too light then they stop working..."

 

I could care less what the best or worst ice climbers use, I use what I think is best for me. I think in the end that's really what matters.

 

You know know what the say..."opinions are like assholes, everyone has one"!

[Dane]

Just trying to be polite. BWTF why not?

 

Obviously some are slow learners. Climb on those Darts a bit danny and you'll find the paint doesn't hold up well. When a good many of the best ice climbers in the world suggest dual horizontals I value the opinion. But I was of the same opinion long before I read their comments. I got the idea from my first ice climbing partner, a Austrian, Otzi, who was a little older (you should see his tools) and now deceased. May he rest in peace.

 

 

My Darts don't have as much paint on them...most of it is gone as well as most of the mono point from climbing stuff like this.

 

 

I choose to use horizontals on ice like this.

 

[RafalA]

Ok, you've got me convinced - going to try this horizontal points on WI today.

 

Been climbing monos and leashless since I learned ice, although that was just a year ago.

 

One thing I've noticed is that as someone who doesn't have experience with leashes, I use my Nomics much more as intended(?) - swapping tools, matching, choking up, shaking out more, etc. - than my friends who've transitioned from leashes. I do use tethers, but have never tried leashes.

 

Same with monos: I find moves like drop knees, stems in awkward formations, more fluid transitions thanks to being able to twist the point around, are much easier and feel more natural in monos. It feels more like rock climbing than bashing up the ice, although this does apply to the more vertical and funky stuff than simple WI3/4.

 

That said, I am always open to suggestions so as stated I'll try this horizontal front point thing this weekend.

[Dane]

"Same with monos: I find moves like drop knees, stems in awkward formations, more fluid transitions thanks to being able to twist the point around, are much easier and feel more natural in monos. It feels more like rock climbing than bashing up the ice, although this does apply to the more vertical and funky stuff than simple WI3/4."

 

Soft boots and mono points go hand in hand. Rafal you are obviously a smart guy and have hit the nail on the head. Good leashless tools can make ice a lot more natural and open a totally new spectrum of what you can do technique wise. If monos work for you, great. They do offer some unigue opportunities if you can take advantage of them. Taking advantage of that technique wise is totally different than saying "monos are the best thing since hot bread". Both styles of 'pons have advantages and disadvantages. I choose what I use and where for a reason. I also have found that no matter what 'pon you use having quiet feet very helpful. You don't need to bash for placements. Better to read the ice and step lightly.

 

But if forced to choose I'll always take a set of horizonals no matter what the terrain is. Too many advantages imo not to. Unless of course we are headed to Hafner

 

 

[Coldfinger]

Why horizontals? maybe for alpine mixed, but on pure ice routes you will quickly learn they fracture the ice more and do not 'stick' in the ice like monos do. Look at your ice picks, they are designed that way for a reason. Using monos is basically like having picks on your feet!

 

Well..... Here's my top ten.

 

#1 Had Dartwins and they absolutely positively sucked for alpine ice, mainly the bottom points (or the configuration and lack thereof). Cant see how a Dart or any other pon with crappy underfoot points (they don't do french but you can hang from your ankles above your head--come on!) will suck less. Yeah and no antibot!

 

#2 Got Sabers on sale and I DON'T have the luxury of spending $$$ on tools ($300 each? WTF!) or multiple sets of crampons. They'll do anything and do it well.

 

#3 They're much lighter than dedicated steep ice G14 or Bionic rails.

 

#4 I don't put ALL my weight on a tool (it happened once b/c a serious chunk of ice blew and took out my feet and the other tool) so maybe Horizontals are less prone to shearing that way as I DO put all my weight on them.

 

#5 Lots of folks with vertical points use TWO, because you guessed it--they're less prone to shearing.

 

#6 There's no need to front point everything anyway, especially on alpine ice. Nice thing about even waterfall ice is that it has FEATURES, so I can often use the side of my front rail or even flat foot (much less prone to fracturing ice BTW).

 

#7 People like Colin and Will do things way harder than I'll ever do and they work well. I'd be embarrassed to wear mono fruit boots and still suck (matching tights too?).

 

#8 People like me do easy to moderate to slightly hardman hard stuff, which is exactly what the Sabers were designed for.

 

#9 Did I mention that ice varies in its condition and horizontals do VERY well (better than a mono vertical) in many of these.

 

#10 I believe everything I see on the internet and Dane has a really cool blog and I want him to like me (which helps as I'm poor and he buys my used junk and makes me feel better about buying cheap pons and sticks). BTW you're NOT Dane, nice try.

 

Now for cup #2 of java. And I do believe it's good to practice climbing on waterfall ice with the same equipment you'd use up high.

 

 

[Coldfinger]

Hey sorry I forgot one:

 

If you turn your foot a little to the side, you can use pick holes with duallys.

[RafalA]

#2 Got Sabers on sale and I DON'T have the luxury of spending $$$ on tools ($300 each? WTF!) or multiple sets of crampons. They'll do anything and do it well.

 

Do you have the front bail or plastic clip ones? Which boots do you use?

 

I have the SS Sabertooths with clip and find the fit kind of awkward - the secondary points are really far underfoot, which is great for mellower stuff on alpine but makes them hard to engage on the steep stuff.

[Coldfinger]

I got the ones with a toe bail and actually replaced that set with Petzl toe bails (good idea Dane!), a tad lighter but a much better fit to the toe welt.

 

I use Aku Spyder Kevlar GTX boots (very high quality hand made in Italy) and just picked up a pair of Scarpa Omegas wicked cheap. One spin in the Aku's on alpine went well, will see how they do at the Bozeman Ice Fest.

 

My 2 cents is that the plastic toe cap style are great for mountaineering (as they fit anything, even overboots and are easier to put on and really can't come off) or lightweight alpine (boots with no toe welt and that have some flex--better walking) but are NOT nearly as good for hard (hardness), steep or hard ice. Had a pair of Sarkens like that and had a lot of wiggle. Toe bails are also a tad more adjustable, especially as the points wear.

Edited December 2, 2010 by Coldfinger

[RafalA]

Those are some sweet-looking boots!

 

I agree, the Petzl bails fit better but I was just chatting with a guy who snapped both on his Darts recently - luckily he wasn't leading.

[Dane]

These? We need a review C/F

 

 

Seems the Petzl bails need replacing ever couple of years if you live in Canmore. (seriously who else in the world gets out that much) The stainless wire gets fatigued over time. It is a problem but easily addressed. Much better fit on the Sabers or Seracs for my boots. BD is coming out with a new bail that kinda splits the difference and is made for the smaller profile soles.

 

Everyone at the Bozeman Icefest should track Bill Belcourt down at the BD booth and ask him for a pair

[RafalA]

Everyone at the Bozeman Icefest should track Bill Belcourt down at the BD booth and ask him for a pair

 

Hehe, can you ask him for an extra pair for me? I'd love to try them - the new Scarpa soles are too thin to fit anything!

[trainwreck]

Why horizontals? maybe for alpine mixed, but on pure ice routes you will quickly learn they fracture the ice more and do not 'stick' in the ice like monos do. Look at your ice picks, they are designed that way for a reason. Using monos is basically like having picks on your feet!

 

This is completely and totally untrue in my experience. Also, NO ONE I know who climbs hard ice does so with mono points. If it's WI5/6 the vast majority of people I know use Sabretooth Pros and a small minority use vertical frontpoints.

[Dane]

Where Trainwreck climbs...and this is "fat conditions".

 

And in my prefered WI IV+ super jumbo size condition And still steep enough that one lap will take the paint off yer Darts

 

 

[trainwreck]

Tried it last week actually. Still way too wet, but it's in enough to climb. Full value WI6 atm.

[Coldfinger]

These? We need a review C/F

 

Well, these boots are a good example of why I have a limited career as a gear reviewer (despite apparently having too much time on my hands lately...):

 

Since I am poor, I buy a lot of closeouts and I'm not sure anyone will even be able to find a pair of these to buy. If you can, buy 'em! I can tell you everywhere I go, they make quite an impression.

 

My 2 cents with single boots (especially if you have weird/hard to fit feet like I do) is that modern composite kevlar fabrics are THE way to go over leather, especially if the lower portion is ALL fabric. Why? They are capable of giving and flexing in places and ways that leather simply cannot, the break in period is short to non-existant and in the case of the Spyder, it has a minimal rand (that orange lace stuff) that still protects the boot without compromising the boot's ability to mold to your foot. If you crank the laces down, you really get a perfect fit for climbing, better than leather IMHO.

 

(You might ask what I meant by Rands being a problem but this but here's a story: I bought the Spyder's cousin the Extreme GTX, branded as EMS' Arete, for $117 which was a steal of a deal for a full leather, Italian made, full shank, goretex, step in compatible boot. HOWEVER it has one hell of a rand and for the life of me I couldn't get the damn thing fully broken in until I took it down to the local cowboy shop and had them crank the sh*t out of it for two overnight sessions with a stretcher. So I'm not a fan of leather boots with big rands for a technical fit or weird feet.)

 

Anyhow, this boot has a carbonfiber midsole, warm and just enough flex to give it a natural feel walking and climbing, double layer of GTX Duratherm, so it is very warm, and excellent lacing system that allows one to lock down the laces mid-height for variable lace tension or not. It really climbs rock very well and has a good mixture of ankle support and flex. The plastic heel cup really helps these somewhat soft uppers hold firm for good front pointing support, and with the carbonfiber shank, provide a rigid yet forgiving structure). For its strength climbing and warmth it is VERY light (2lbs ea. ish). It takes step in bindings.

 

I'd say it is the perfect boot for any situation where one has to walk in a long distance and then climb in the cold (Andes come to mind). They really are super comfortable.

 

This is probably a good example of a GREAT boot not doing well in the market simply because it lacked good marketing or brand name X.

[dan_e]

Just trying to be polite. BWTF why not?

 

Obviously some are slow learners. Climb on those Darts a bit danny and you'll find the paint doesn't hold up well. When a good many of the best ice climbers in the world suggest dual horizontals I value the opinion. But I was of the same opinion long before I read their comments. I got the idea from my first ice climbing partner, a Austrian, Otzi, who was a little older (you should see his tools) and now deceased. May he rest in peace.

 

My Darts don't have as much paint on them...most of it is gone as well as most of the mono point from climbing stuff like this.

 

I choose to use horizontals on ice like this.

 

Again to me it doesn't matter what other people climb with. I don't care who it is, if they are better or worse than me. I value top climbers for how they climb, not the gear they use. The gear we choose is and should always be personal preference. It's not like I am not open to ideas from others, it's that the decision is ultimately mine.

 

As for my Darts, two items: A) that pic is was taken a few years ago and B) my points are more worn down, however not that much because I concentrate on foot work. Nothing worse than a ice/mixed climber that scratches at the rock and or swings their tool hard into thin ice. Side note to that, I met a guy who bent a BD pick this weekend. In 19 years of ice climbing/mixed/drytooling I've never even bent a pick let alone broken one.

 

I could go on dane, however you've probably been here long enough to remember the days of good ole' 'caveman' and well you know I have better things to do than argue online, which is generally pointless.

 

Maybe well meet someday and have this discussion over a beer, until then me and my darts are out.

 

peace.

[RafalA]

So, took the Sabretooths for a run up Cascade this morning (the benefits of living 30 minutes away!) and I have to say I'm impressed.

 

As best as I can recall, this is my first time actually climbing in these and on the WI2/3 of Cascade they were a dream. Given the sun beating down, the ice was quite soft and wet, handily highlighting the benefits of the horizontal points.

 

Next time I'll be heading out for easy ice, I think I'll take the Sabretooths again...