MT Hood Continued

[terrablades]

My heart goes out to the friends and family of these climbers and to the community of climbers that understand what these people are facing on the mountain.

 

The real lesson here is a message of passion and humility, beyond should they have carried one ice axe or two.

 

Passion: people would do well appreciate the personal achievments of these highly spirited and tenacious people and possibly be just that more inspired to be good at whatever you do after reading about how committed these climbers are to what they do.

 

Humility: to understand we are not in control of every event that comes our way. No amount of dissection and analysis will ever come up with a formula of complete control. So really there is no point ask what if, there is no comfort to be found there it is an illusion.

 

I remember skiing in Chamonix with well known English Climber who pointed at a spire of rock and told me he spent the night in a thunderstorm on it, he told me he could actually sleep. I would no sooner seccond guess this man's judgment in his art than cut my own XXXX off.

 

It is very conforting to know that so many highly skilled people are focused on finding these climbers. It says allot for the community as a whole. Surely they are in the best of hands in this situation being that every attempt is and will be made to bring the remaining two home.

 

 

Edited December 20, 2006 by terrablades

[mattp]

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with speculating about what this or that set of tracks may mean, or asking “dumb” questions about how one uses an ice axe to self arrest or whatever. I don’t think this is disrespectful of the climbers involved, their families, the rescue teams, or anybody else.

 

In my view, what IS disrespectful is to come into a discussion like this with inside jokes, criticism of what someone thinks this website or the activity of mountain climbing stand for, to argue that the climbers don’t deserve a rescue effort, or to needlessly insult any of the various parties involved. And, I think, it is equally disrespectful to come into this discussion and attack someone for trying to make some sense out of all of this. We’ll all disagree where to draw these lines, I’m sure.

 

I believe the value in this thread has been in the fact that it has at various points included friends and family of the climbers, climbers and others who knew them, rescue folks, people very familiar with Mt. Hood, and all kinds of views/ideas/ and prayers about these events. If you don't want to converse with this wide variety of participants, and if you want to argue about some tangential point, please start another discussion.

 

 

The moderators here are all volunteers, and we really don't have time to closely monitor these discussions. We've done what we can to keep it somewhat on track, but the rest is up to you.

 

[milk_toast]

Your postings about your attempts to understand obvious facts and climbing concepts are a waste of everyone's time and are not productive in any way for anyone except yourself and no one cares if you ever understand this accident anyway.

 

So stop it.

 

Wait for the official report. You will get your explanation.

 

p.s. I'm glad that you have now summarized what you think the lessons to be gleaned from this event are; now you can stop posting.

This post is my Alpha and Omega:

If those missing climbers were as rude and graceless as the person quoted above (as well as others who have posted on here and in other boards), I'd just have to say "Good Riddance!".

 

[kjlfaiejlifli]

I think some of the speculative scenarios are thought provoking and may even pose some possible options that people may not have considered. However, being speculative, they could be mistaken as fact. Why can't we just create a sub-thread called something like Speculative Thoughts and keep that out of this informative thread? Wouldn't that alleviate some of the negativity in this thread? If you don't approve of the potential theories or "what ifs", then just don't go in that thread. Put a sticky at the top of the forum advising that the thread be used for non_official discussion of the search and rescue.

 

Peace, prayers and hope to the families.

[kjlfaiejlifli]

This reply is unnecessary and disrespectful. Two wrongs do not make a right. Your reply exhibits the exact disrespect so many of the experts here are complaining about. You are a very troubled person to make your last comment in light of the circumstances. May God have mercy on you soul.

 

[note: prior post deleted]

Edited December 20, 2006 by mattp

[ICan'tClimb]

 

"If those missing climbers were as rude and graceless as the person quoted above..."

 

They weren't.

 

These climbers were fine Christian men who were head and shoulders above the characters displayed here. I would venture a guess that at the first "f**k", they would have logged out.

 

I have read some variation of this blogged comment over and over again on different boards, in different media commentaries:

 

"Many of us have been unusually burdened by this tragedy--burdened to pray--even before knowing the men are believers."

 

There is something remarkable about what this story has produced in the hearts of people throughout the world. We newbies, who have endured unremitting abuse on this forum, are joined the world over by other people who are amazed at the way these young men have touched them. Who knows why that is?

 

All I know is that, this tragedy is one of those that we humans run across in our lifetimes that peels the shiny veneer off our souls and shows the world what we're made of. I think we have seen all kinds of souls revealed on this forum.

 

The speculation that has been so vilified here has been a smokescreen for elitism and one-up-man-ship. If you start at the beginning of this thread--50 pages back--you will see that it started with speculation among the veterans of this website. The sheriff's department is speculating. I'm positive the family is speculating. Everyone is speculating, because that's what we do. Our human condition won't allow us to do otherwise.

 

We want to know "why"--why is there suffering? why did they get caught in the snowstorm? why cant they be found? We feel the pain of being very small and vulnerable and the only way we can stand that pain is to try to figure out why. If we could only figure out why, the seemingly random pain of life would be contained.

 

No--everyone who attempted to be part of the dialogue on this board is not a climber. Everyone has not made 2,000 posts on this board. But everyone here has been touched by these young men. That's what we had in common all along--and we missed the opportunity to allow that to change us.

 

If anyone is interested, this is the webpage of the family's blog. It is a wonderful site that shows the character of the men it honors. One poster on this board said that if Kelly, Nikko and Brian had been on the board, they would have joined in the harassment of the non-climbers.

 

No, they wouldn't have.

 

 

 

http://mthoodclimbers.blogspot.com/2006/12/please-join-us-in-prayer-for-kelly.html

[apple4u]

i've been following the posts here from the beginning, to gain better info about the mt hood search and rescue op. i prefer cc much more than the media- so thanks to all the posters. and thanks to all the SR crews out there- you guys are just amazing. i'm a novice rock climber and have only a couple of friends that are expert climbers. (btw, i have fallen in love with mt hood over the last week and really hope to get out there one day.)

 

i really want to comment on the speculation part, somewhat from the family's point of view. my brother was in an accident 5 years ago-he crashed in an aerobatic plane with another pilot - both were experienced and skilled. i know it's not rock climbing but it's also an extreme sport and when this occurred a lot of speculation came from everywhere. my borther thankfully survived but was fighting for his life in a hospital for a long time. unfortunately the other pilot died in the accident. of course it had much much less media coverage than mt. hood this week; most of the speculation came within the flying community but also within our close circle of family and friends.

 

my point here is that we all speculated what went wrong. how can this happen? we went over the radio transmissions before the crash, we tried to gather all the facts, all the details to rationalize how this could happen to them. but a time came when we all realized that this kind speculation is not doing anyone any good and that we should just accept that we are human and that accidents happen. and that once they do you cannot go back and change them. extreme sports have a very little margin for error, this is why people are attracted to them. you are able to control a situation that naturally does not seem controllable. one of the NTSB investigators said to me accidents happen to the best of the best. i think this applies here: Kelly, Jerry and Brian were one of the best. they lived doing what they loved. and they spent their last days on this beautiful mountain high in the sky. my heart and thoughts go out to their family and friends. i can only imagine how hard this is but remember all the good times and remember their passion for life and sport.

 

(btw when the official accident report was released by NTSB more than a year later most of the speculators did not show much interest in it- i guess it was old news by then.)

[pink]

the world is calling them irresponsible risk takers who have wasted our tax dollars. us as climbers know and repsect those than anyone else out there because we have had similar experiences. yes i don't know them personally, but i'm sure i have roped up with other climbers just like these guys. we support those climbers and realize their suffering, and realize that shit happends. i don't know about you, but if i were those climbers i would wish that you stop replaying these series of events over and over. nothing worst than hearing how i fucked up from someone who is ignorant to the truth.it was there time and they are in gods hands now. so take your soap box elsewhere.

[brrp]

I know jerry cooke very personally...

read:

 

He had no kids, but James..

 

I feel for his children that will grow up without a father.

 

His reckless behaviour was unjustified and selfish for a father of young children.

He was/is a friend and co-worker for the past 8 years

we survived the collapse of WTC

RESPECT!

 

As a responsible father, I put dangerous activities on hold - regardless of whatever personal loss I felt for them.

 

A father's responsibility outweighs the need to climb mountains and skydive that I miss dearly.

 

I just love my children more.

deal f'ers\

by the way... no one called Jerry Cooke "NIKKO" but these F'ers

Edited December 20, 2006 by brrp

[MauiHawk]

I've have been reading the board for a couple of days.

I just wanted to comment on several of the informative posts I have read, that made this forum worth reading.

 

I think 2 of the climbers were descending above the area referred to as the gullies and James was trying to lower them because of the difficulty in trying to climb down against the hurricane force wind. In the process he dislocated his shoulder. The climbers were left on their own to descend and fell to the death being blown off. That makes the most sense to me.

 

I think they all most likely had cellphones (for emergency, and in case one was lost). If James had been the only one who was hurt, I think the other 2 would have also made attempts to use their cellphones to call for help for James. I also think the other 2 might have been able to put his shoulder back in place and he could have continued.

 

James didn't tell his family about his injury and I believe he didn't tell them about the probable death of the other 2 climbers because he didn't want to worry his family anymore.

 

He knew he wouldn't be able to descend after the other 2 had failed and knew he didnt have the equipment needed to stay very long in a snow cave on the mtn. I think this was part of the reason he seemed delirious on the phone (in addition to the injury and altitude).

 

This is what sounds the most reasonable to me.

 

So I really don't understand how you could have read Cluck's post, and responded like this. Everybody with direct contact or participation in the search have laid out about the same series of events with relative confidence. I think the time has come that speculating about scenarios contrary to what the rescue teams seem fairly confident in is starting to take on conspiracy theory flavor.

 

That said, while I can understand many find it sick that people are spending so much time speculating about their demise, I don't actually think this ambulance-chasing nature of humans is a bad thing. I think what this really is is people trying to empathize. It's our ability to empathize with others that makes us care about others. Sure, there are boundaries that can be crossed in terms of repect for the lost and their families, but in my opinion very few crossed that line here (even posts that ignore facts that have been reported).

 

Anyway, I'm leaving now, but I wanted to say thanks to the members of CascadeClimbers for putting up with us and sharing with us. I've learned a lot about climbing in addition to the tragedy by reading this thread and as frustrating as this thread may have been to some of you, I think it probably did a lot of good for the climbing community.

 

And, of course, my thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and their families.

 

Peace.

Edited December 20, 2006 by MauiHawk

[brrp]

get a grip

enought with your worthless "vibes"

atheist Gore lovers get nada..

 

Edited December 20, 2006 by brrp

[pink]

I know jerry cooke very personally...

read:

 

He had no kids, but James..

 

I feel for his children that will grow up without a father.

 

His reckless behaviour was unjustified and selfish for a father of young children.

He was/is a friend and co-worker for the past 8 years

we survived the collapse of WTC

RESPECT!

 

As a responsible father, I put dangerous activities on hold - regardless of whatever personal loss I felt for them.

 

A father's responsibility outweighs the need to climb mountains and skydive that I miss dearly.

 

I just love my children more.

deal f'ers\

by the way... no one called Jerry Cooke "NIKKO" but these F'ers

 

it wasn't dangerous it beacme dangerous. leaving your house is dangerous within itself.

[brrp]

"Climb" to your bank and pay your mortgage...

"the climb" ...

please... enough

climb out of your bed and get to work

pathos...

[terrablades]

Fair enough. That was quite a sweeping statment about not going over what ifs. my apology.

 

Much of the details covered are indead very usefull but it seems the judgement that also accompanies/underlies some of these posts and many other forums are bit unsettling.

 

Example, A friend of mine has it figuered out that if they had radios, then they could have remained together to wait for help. Though he may be right, it seems to a certain judgmental quality and simplicity that probably would be best held back at least until more is known.

 

There seems to be allot of finger pointing going on, especially on more simplistic threads with a generally less informed userbase, my point was basically to commend these people and wish them well and to respect them as mountaineers and skilled at what they do first and foremost.

 

[brrp]

leaving your house is a necessity

[pink]

not with todays technology. anyway living your life is a neccessity. i could go on and on. have some respect these guys are dead, and the dads boy will grow up fine, and will still love him even though he didn't get know him.

[brrp]

radios..?

Kelly had a phone and irt was soaked..

 

 

"live for the climb"

 

"live for your kids..."

[pink]

i agree.

[Pedroslog]

My opinion on the speculation is this. There have been people who were on the mountain, or who know the mountain, or who are seasoned climbers, who have speculated on what happened based on the known facts. This speculation has been useful and informative.

 

Then there are people who have no idea what they are talking about, no background knowledge, and no connection to anyone involved, who are speculating and cluttering up this thread with inane questions. This is not useful. Their questions can be answered elsewhere if they would put just a little more effort into it. Their noise here has made it extremely difficult to extract useful information out of this thread, and to top it off they make snide remarks when requested to desist. This demonstrates a lack of consideration for a community that has lost at least one of their own.

 

I don't know these climbers, but I know people who know them. Some of them asked me to try to piece this together the best I could and explain to them to the best of my knowledge what happened. That has been a difficult and frustrating task, in no small part because of the rubberneckers posting here. If the discussion in this thread had been left to people who have a reasonable idea of what they are talking about, and to family and friends seeking sound information, then this thread would have been a great resource, and going forward it might have been a great resource for family and friends seeking to find some explanation and closure. Alas, this is not the case, and it's a shame.

 

As I suggested earlier, and some others have suggested, perhaps there are some lessons to be learned here (for the managers of this site) about how to better manage this circus when it happens again.

 

[Salmon Fly]

MRD -

 

I'm pretty sure you didn't read (comprehend) the passage. Read it again and you'll see that that I was suggesting that Mr. James was a solid guy that would have advised his family if his friends were in danger or worse so that his wife/son could have contacted the families of his companions.

 

Tight lines.

[twocents]

The criticism of speculators, ('rubberneckers' as they are now being called) is unfair when you repeatedly say that this is not the thread for it, and even some suggest a new thread. Then when the new thread is started, those same people go over to it and insult any who may post there before it even gets started. You can't have it both ways. Either it's ok in the proper thread/topic, or it should not be allowed anywhere. Which is it going to be? Right now, there's more criticism of the speculation than actual speculation. In the same way you hate such people being here, when a new thread is started, why keep complaining in that new thread? That's ludicrous.

[dallas-friend]

brrp, I'm a friend of Kelly's in Dallas and knew Kelly personally and you're way off-base regarding his children [they're not young]. Anyone who knew Kelly would tell you how much he loved his children and what a great father he was - they've all climbed and backpacked with him. He instilled in them a sense of adventure, pursuing what you love/have a passion for and respect.

 

I've followed CC.com all week and learned alot, I didn't want to add unnecessary posts - but this shot at Kelly deeply bothered me.

[twocents]

brrp, I'm a friend of Kelly's in Dallas and knew Kelly personally and you're way off-base regarding his children [they're not young]. Anyone who knew Kelly would tell you how much he loved his children and what a great father he was - they've all climbed and backpacked with him. He instilled in them a sense of adventure, pursuing what you love/have a passion for and respect.

 

I've followed CC.com all week and learned alot, I didn't want to add unnecessary posts - but this shot at Kelly deeply bothered me.

Knowing better, I started to respond, but the post wasn't worth the finger energy to type it. That clown knew nothing about his family situation.

[bestbuddy]

It bothered me also dallas.

[AnotherStranger]

I just wanted to say a quick thank you to Cascade Climbers for a great site. I have been watching this thread since page 2 and learned invaluable information about climbing and the camaraderie that you share. While it does take some weeding there is still a lot of good information on this thread and I will be checking back. I will be keeping tabs on your other threads and held on to every word describing the Rainier climb (I am glad that climb had a happy ending!!) Love your sense of humor (cutting my nails has a whole new meaning). ICantClimb - THANK YOU for sharing the other site. It was so refreshing to see so many prayers for the climbers, their families and everyone involved with the rescue. God's speed to all of you. While I don't see myself summiting anytime soon (Dog Mtn fine for me), you all will be in my thoughts and prayers. The rush must be AMAZING, but the jagged little rocks scare the hell outta me!!