Route Evolution

[Peter_Puget]

Last weekend I at a friend’s house I saw some old Vantage pictures. (80-86/7) One was of an early ascent Red M&Ms. The first thing I noticed was that there was no chalk. T he second was that the route seems to have changed a bit over time. Comparing my friend's pics to this one in the CC.com Gallery clearly shows a significant “new” hold. I bet there is more than just one. Anyone else have any old RED MM pics?

Edited December 18, 2006 by Peter_Puget

[G-spotter]

It's Vantage. Old holds vanish and new holds appear every 5 minutes. Indeed, the slope below the cliff is composed of former holds. And former routes. Some with dummies attached.

[Peter_Puget]

Ratings chnge too. In this case the route went from .11 to.12!

[G-spotter]

So it has more holds but is harder, or did climbers just get weaker?

[bwrts]

I always thought MaxD originally rated the pitch 12-

 

And Druspot is correct disVantage is a fun, evolving pile...not sure about the every 5min comment tho.

 

Anyrate, this reminds me of when strip minors was first climbed wayback when...

Cap and I spent a few hours kicking the cliff prior to attempting to hold on for bolt placement, etc. It was about then we realized how stooopid and gai this activity was but since we started the little put down proj, we finished it. I remember it being a tricky 10a or b; the climb to the right (done by jim y et al.) was actually also sent that afternoon as well (prior to jim's party the following week). We called it paranoid cuz jim drove off yelling out his window, while clutcn hangers from the top anchor, "Yah better not not climb my rooooot...." we just laughed, tied the dogs to the dog bolt and then rapeled off the tat and ancient bolt hangers (from out bolt kit)down jims route. I bet jim saw our tat the next weekend, replaced it with the original hangers and then modified the route a bit prior to his First Ascent.

Whatever really the point is the Frenchmens Coulee is a pile. Even the best walls change a bit...

afterall cliffs all exfoliate/mass waste to some degree.

[Peter_Puget]

I always thought MaxD originally rated the pitch 12-

 

Nope 5.11.

[Jens]

I've never led it but topropped it a bunch in the 90's and I distinctly remember that when I first topropped it in 92' there were fewer holds then when I toproped it in 95'. In 95' theholds were not only numerous but some of the newer ones were much better.

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Interestingly enough, many of the overhanging entablature sport routes have gotten harder than when they were first put in.