JosephH Posted January 6, 2007 Posted January 6, 2007 No comparison and folks break WCZ's right and left whereas I've never heard of anyone breaking a ball nut... BallNutz Specs -------------------------------------------------------- # / mm / in / gm / oz / Strength / Color -------------------------------------------------------- 1 / 3 - 6 / .12 - .24 / 29.0 / 1.0 / 4.5k / Blue 2 / 4.5 - 9 / .18 - .35 / 39.0 / 1.4 / 8k / Red 3 / 6 - 12 / .24 - .47 / 48.0 / 1.7 / 8k / Gold 4 / 9 - 13 / .35 - .51 / 61.0 / 2.2 / 8k / Green 5 / 11 - 15 / .43 - .59 / 71.0 / 2.5 / 8k / Purple WCZ Specs -------------------------------------------------------- # / Range / Strength -------------------------------------------------------- 1 / 5.5-7.8mm / 3kN 2 / 7.0-9.8mm / 4kN 3 / 8.5-12.2mm / 6kN Quote
G-spotter Posted January 6, 2007 Posted January 6, 2007 folks break WCZ's right and left never heard of anyone breaking a ball nut cause no one uses them! Quote
counterfeitfake Posted January 6, 2007 Posted January 6, 2007 What makes the Ball Nutz better in your opinion? Besides the breaking zeroes... I guess I can't doubt that you've heard of broken zeroes, although I haven't. How does a zero get broken? Ball Nutz seem kind of tricky to place. Quote
G-spotter Posted January 6, 2007 Posted January 6, 2007 forget placing them... try REMOVING them after they've been weighted you might need 4 arms and a crowbar Quote
high_on_rock Posted January 7, 2007 Posted January 7, 2007 I hate to distract a thread, but have people taken good falls on the ball nutz? I love them, but have not tested them. I imagine that once I fall on it, it will be a permanant piece of the rock (if it holds.) Any experience? E Quote
JosephH Posted January 7, 2007 Posted January 7, 2007 I've taken lots of falls on ball nuts. I've taken repeated dives on both #2's and #3s (like 4-6 falls working a line) I've never once had a problem removing them. It's all in how you place them. I use them relentlessly and have never done an FA without carrying them. Here's some more in-depth discussion about them from rc.com: Ballnutz Careful consideration when putting your balls on the line... Quote
JosephH Posted January 7, 2007 Posted January 7, 2007 never heard of anyone breaking a ball nut cause no one uses them! No one used Crack'N Ups either. Some things are just a bit esoteric and / or folks simply don't bother to understand how they work and how to use them. People buy WCZ's because they understand how to pull a trigger and that's about as far as they look despite the fact that they are objectively inferior to available alternatives. If I only followed the herd I'd have missed out on a lot in both climbing and life... Quote
northvanclimber Posted January 7, 2007 Posted January 7, 2007 No one used Crack'N Ups either. Some things are just a bit esoteric and / or folks simply don't bother to understand how they work and how to use them. People buy WCZ's because they understand how to pull a trigger and that's about as far as they look despite the fact that they are objectively inferior to available alternatives. If I only followed the herd I'd have missed out on a lot in both climbing and life... i've never seen a crack'n up, but are the current BD peckers the newest reincarnation of them??? i've been experimenting with the peckers (i'm still pretty new to aid and am just now expanding my rack beyond the usual cams and nuts) and have to say that i really love them for certain applications... There are definately places where a good cam hook or pecker is just sooo much better than a micro cam (zero, TCU, whatever) or micro nut. Quote
JosephH Posted January 7, 2007 Posted January 7, 2007 Peckers are the latest invocation of A5 (Hurricane Works) Beaks which were designed off of ideas from half a Crack'N Up that was cut up. Beaks and Peckers were designed to be hammered even if folks sometimes hand place them. Crack'N Ups were designed as passive camming devices much like a Leeper cam hook. The shaft if bent / offset from the head to provide the camming action. Crack'N Ups are two-sided so they can cam right side or left. Also, for ball nuts you should consider heating the plastic sheath tubing and flattening it, especially on the #1 - #3 so it doesn't get in the way of placing it. Quote
counterfeitfake Posted January 7, 2007 Posted January 7, 2007 People buy WCZ's because they understand how to pull a trigger and that's about as far as they look despite the fact that they are objectively inferior to available alternatives. I'm still ignorant of why they're objectively inferior. Maybe you can educate me? It seems like one could argue that since they're easier to place, that's a point in their favor. After all your link says "Ball Nut placements by and large require careful study and attention when placing them". But I'm interested in learning more about Ball Nutz. Quote
underworld Posted January 7, 2007 Posted January 7, 2007 i've had no problem removing ballnutz... of the few times i've placed em - they remove themselves once weighted. Quote
JosephH Posted January 7, 2007 Posted January 7, 2007 Again, folks who have problems with ball nuts just haven't put the time and effort into figuring out how they actually work. WCZ's are simply less robust from a materials and design perspective and the charts above speak for themselves. Quote
counterfeitfake Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 If that's your whole argument, I think it's incomplete. There are placements for zeros that won't take a ball nut. Placing a weak zero provides better pro than an unplaced ball nut. Quote
G-spotter Posted January 9, 2007 Posted January 9, 2007 you could put years into trying to come up with acceptable places to use ballnuts or you could just get some zerocams... Quote
JosephH Posted January 9, 2007 Posted January 9, 2007 And end up climbing above fairly weak, if not lame, pro because of it... Quote
underworld Posted January 9, 2007 Posted January 9, 2007 maybe climbs like that should be bolted? Quote
JosephH Posted January 9, 2007 Posted January 9, 2007 That's what small pro is for. It just pays to know the capabilities and limitations of the pro when it starts getting small. Many of the aspects of placing pro we take for granted when using larger gear become considerably more critical at smaller scales. Constructing placements from one or multiple small/micro pieces of pro that will actually hold falls takes a bit of different mindset and very clear understanding of both the pro and the rock you're attempting to use. I've been free climbing above small pro and assorted hooks for a long time and have fallen on many of those placements. We took a load of dives on a circular nest of seven equalized rp's once putting up a route at Crow Hill in MA back in the mid-80's. We used about a dozen steeply pre-sliced Air Voyagers (Screamers) three or four times each in the process, reslicing them again and again, and the nest held up until the job got done. You can get quite creative with both small pro, hooks, and pre-sliced screamers in various combinations and never have to resort to a bolt, if you know what you're doing. And yes, WCZ's could even play a role in one's arsenal, but there are not many places (very shallow horizontals)where I'd be inclined to use them rather than more robust alternatives. Quote
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