RuMR Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 I'm not forming any opinions until the tests CCH and MGear promised come back. It wouldn't surprise me if CCH is behind the game on QC, especially if most of that has become automated. Big companies like BD can afford the equipment or outsource to someone that can. Why they don't say it I don't know. It wouldn't surprise me if CCH has zero PR/legal staff. Twenty years ago, when QC was much less, were people dying from cams mechanically failing? Gary, your supposed understanding of statistics should let you understand that Mgear could pull test each and every one of the units on their shelves successfully and that will give an absolutely meaningless confidence...ie, it needs to be done at the mfr level... and 20 years ago, i don't recall any cams exploding... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Gary, your supposed understanding of statistics should let you understand that Mgear could pull test each and every one of the units on their shelves successfully and that will give an absolutely meaningless confidence...ie, it needs to be done at the mfr level.. ummm, all depends on the # they have, what serials, etc. STFU rumr, I'm tired of seeing farts on the screen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 it makes me wonder if the rest of their operation is amateurish too You think a company that batch produces when they feel like it isn't "amateurish"? Doesn't mean they can't do good quality machining. QC is a garbage in garbage out procedure. Comeon, tell me this isn't a f'ing surprise. yeah, but if they can't even identify the stoned climber that produced the shit in which batch they are in deep shit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Yngve Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 What I meant by " I'd be mouthing bullshit if I were to start bashing CCH's manufacturing." is that I'm not qualified to be saying statements about their manufacturing. Yes, I would like an explanation at some point, but I'm in no hurry. Give them time to do their job. It's ski season anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 Gary, your supposed understanding of statistics should let you understand that Mgear could pull test each and every one of the units on their shelves successfully and that will give an absolutely meaningless confidence...ie, it needs to be done at the mfr level.. ummm, all depends on the # they have, what serials, etc. STFU rumr, I'm tired of seeing farts on the screen. yeah, right...hypothetically, if they bought every unit from that batch, then they might have some meaningful numbers... Oh and CJ go fuck yerself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 What I meant by " I'd be mouthing bullshit if I were to start bashing CCH's manufacturing." is that I'm not qualified to be saying statements about their manufacturing. Yes, I would like an explanation at some point, but I'm in no hurry. Give them time to do their job. It's ski season anyway. its never ski season in my world... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ireneo_Funes Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 it makes me wonder if the rest of their operation is amateurish too You think a company that batch produces when they feel like it isn't "amateurish"? Doesn't mean they can't do good quality machining. QC is a garbage in garbage out procedure. Comeon, tell me this isn't a f'ing surprise. yeah, but if they can't even identify the stoned climber that produced the shit in which batch they are in deep shit... Exactly. I'd just like to know exactly how half-assed their operation is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 yeah, right...hypothetically, if they bought every unit from that batch, then they might have some meaningful numbers... Oh and CJ go fuck yerself Hey, jizz on the screen might coverup the knownothing shit you are spewing . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 likewise bitch... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 it makes me wonder if the rest of their operation is amateurish too You think a company that batch produces when they feel like it isn't "amateurish"? Doesn't mean they can't do good quality machining. QC is a garbage in garbage out procedure. Comeon, tell me this isn't a f'ing surprise. yeah, but if they can't even identify the stoned climber that produced the shit in which batch they are in deep shit... Exactly. I'd just like to know exactly how half-assed their operation is. Bring on the blowhards! Bring on the mindless consumers who don't know WTF they are talking about and can be easily impressed with statistics and ISO #s! Vive les consultants! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 gee...please inform me...that's all i'm really asking for...how does this operation work... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 how does this operation work... Are you competent to interpret the answer? From reading most companies websites and the responses here seems 95% of climbers aren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 don't know...try me...so far no one has ventured out an answer... I know exactly how Metolius works...I have a really hard time seeing them in this mess regardless of what formal QC program they do or don't institute... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 I have a really hard time seeing them in this mess regardless of what formal QC program they do or don't institute... fool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ireneo_Funes Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 So Carl, how do you think CCH, or any company facing this kind of PR problem, should go about restoring consumer faith in their products? Seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra_Commander Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 the mo' sigma the mo' betta bitches it's all about the big broz clothez n hoes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Yngve Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 yeah, right...hypothetically, if they bought every unit from that batch, then they might have some meaningful numbers... Good to know that the whole science of sample size, population size, and confidence is bunk. Oh and CJ go fuck yerself When you can't think of anything intelligent to contribute, you resort to the foul personal attack. Classy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 I have a really hard time seeing them in this mess regardless of what formal QC program they do or don't institute... fool. hmmm...nice answer, there, asswipe... i maybe a fool, but i've seen first hand how Metolius fabricates their stuff, from their CNC batching, to their assembly steps...back in the old days and how they are put together today... No one is saying that something can't be missassembled or screwed up in a hidden manner, but there are steps that can be taken to mitigate them, i said MITIGATE, not eliminate... Why can't he just say how he puts them together??????? What's he got to hide???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 yeah, right...hypothetically, if they bought every unit from that batch, then they might have some meaningful numbers... Good to know that the whole science of sample size, population size, and confidence is bunk. Oh and CJ go fuck yerself When you can't think of anything intelligent to contribute, you resort to the foul personal attack. Classy. Never claimed to be classy. Elitist! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Why can't he just say how he puts them together??????? What's he got to hide???? He doesn't want to give someone else blueprints on how to build aliens so they can then go overseas and make them for cheap? It's called proprietary information - most companies keep that stuff quiet. I don't know how to go about restoring confidence caused by an idiotic internet lynch mob - I'm not in PR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Yngve Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 I'm not forming any opinions until the tests CCH and MGear promised come back. Gary, your supposed understanding of statistics should let you understand that Mgear could pull test each and every one of the units on their shelves successfully and that will give an absolutely meaningless confidence You're assuming things I didn't say. If the MGear tests come back with zero failures, I'm certainly not going to interpret that as all Aliens are safe. All I said is I'm withholding opinions until more information is available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 yeah, right...hypothetically, if they bought every unit from that batch, then they might have some meaningful numbers... Good to know that the whole science of sample size, population size, and confidence is bunk. That was my whole point... Oh and CJ go fuck yerself When you can't think of anything intelligent to contribute, you resort to the foul personal attack. Classy. one for one...CJ seems to be holding his own on a personal attack level... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Folks, It's been clearly established over the past year that stem braze, trigger sheath, and axle hole location defects have made it out CCH's door, into retailers, and onto folks' racks. This is also on top of a long history of service that could only be described as "intermittent" at best as well as years of retailer frustration from attempting to do business with them. From the nature of the details surrounding each of those defects along with a litany service problems a pretty clear picture emerges of a craft/artisan operation not at all unlike say a blacksmith or jewelry maker. Dave and CCH have clearly made "lifestyle" choices that go a long way to defining this business and it is not a stretch to say that it is probably not the typical engineering/manufacturing culture one normally associates with the production of consumer hard goods. Again, anyone that has been involved with manufacturing quality standards can quickly deduce there is no real formal or even rudimentary quality controls in place. If there were, the use of even a simple cam lobe [fit] test jig for each size cam at the start of a CNC run would have prevented the axle hole problem and if they were pull testing each finished cam it would be unlikely that we would see heads popping off them. The trigger sheath issue had no simple solution. As for service, when I send a cam in for a simple repair it shouldn't take four months of hassling them by email, snailmail, and phone to get it back. Dave responded badly to this incident but he has since come around in his response and we can only hope that he further sits down and really reconsiders his whole approach to manufacturing and starts down the road to a change in both culture and processes at CCH. Climbing hasn't been innocent since we lost Chouinard and none of us want a replay of that scenario with CCH. If you have cams made in 2005 my recommendation would be to set up somewhere and vigorously bounce test them, closely examine the axle hole location and camming range, and return any that are a problematic for a replacement (which I'd also test the same way for now.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 Why can't he just say how he puts them together??????? What's he got to hide???? He doesn't want to give someone else blueprints on how to build aliens so they can then go overseas and make them for cheap? It's called proprietary information - most companies keep that stuff quiet. I don't know how to go about restoring confidence caused by an idiotic internet lynch mob - I'm not in PR. so carl, can you tell me when the axle last fell out of a TCU? or the wire body decided to part ways with the rest of the unit???? Personally i can't... As far as how the things actually work, that is no big secret... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 Folks, It's been clearly established over the past year that stem braze, trigger sheath, and axle hole location defects have made it out CCH's door, into retailers, and onto folks' racks. This is also on top of a long history of service that could only be described as "intermittent" at best as well as years of retailer frustration from attempting to do business with them. From the nature of the details surrounding each of those defects along with a litany service problems a pretty clear picture emerges of a craft/artisan operation not at all unlike say a blacksmith or jewelry maker. Dave and CCH have clearly made "lifestyle" choices that go a long way to define this business and it is not a stretch to say that it is probably not a typical engineering/manufacturing culture one normally associates with the production of consumer hard goods. Again, anyone that has been involved with manufacturing quality standards can quickly deduce there is no real formal or even rudimentary quality controls in place. If there were even a simple cam lobe [fit] test jig use for each size cam at the start of each CNC run the axle hole problem wouldn't have ever seen the light of day and if the tested each finished cam it would be unlikely that we would see heads popping off them. The trigger sheath issue had no simple solution. As for service, when I send a cam in for a simple repair it shouldn't take four months of hassling them by email, snailmail, and phone to get it back. Dave responded badly to this incident but he has since come around in his response and we can only hope that he further sits down and really reconsiders his whole approach to manufacturing. Climbing hasn't been innocent since we lost Chouinard and none of us want a replay of that scenario with CCH. Thanks for the post! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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