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Lifetime Guarantee??


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I think alot has to do with where you buy. I used to work for REI and we returned some CRAZY stuff. One time we returned ONE (not one pair) old cross country ski boot and replaced it with a new pair because the lady was dissatisfied. With REI though, they can look up you're purchase history if your a member and see if you return crap all the time, or if you buy tons of stuff, and base decisions on that. I will still pay a little extra and buy from them because of thier return policy.......if I can't find it on ebay for cheaper ;-)

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I am with Fools congress. Lifetime means the reasonable life of the product. If you take in gaiters that are full of crampon holes that past life. If they are well cared for but used, they should stay good. Same with a jacket. Seams parting, delaming, leaky units are manufactures problems. Torn on the rocks, melted in the fire, "I accidently towed my truck with it" are lifetime past due.


Ketch and Congress, yes, I agree as I would hope most people would that taking in stuff with holes from wear and tear is not appropriate. But consider this. Last year, my OR gators had the velcro blow off for the second time. (The first time I re-sewed it on.) But if Or can't use strong thread or grab enough material where it gets sewn to have the velcro stay sewed on, that's a defect imo. So yes, my gators had crampon holes that I had patched myself, but that is not why I brought them back. Likewise I have pants that have holes in them I have patched. That is not the reason I have sent them in for repair or replacement. But sewn seams are blowing apart all over and not because I have gotten fat. It's like the thread has suddenly rotted!And what if your goretex delams after 10 years?


Get off the holes and normal wear and tear (abuse) stuff. I'm asking what is "lifetime" for delam gortex, thread rotting, snaps breaking, velcro coming off, gortex leaking, stuff that comes apart NOT as a result of user abuse, just normal use?


agreed. i like stitching to stay put too. i've never had a jacket delam, and i don't take care of my gear so well either. i'm guessing that's a 'their problem' and not a 'your problem'. i'm not meaning to get on your case, and i'm sorry if i sound that way. as i said, my problem is with those who make a game out of how often they can rip off REI, et al.

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as far as the life of goretex, i don't know. probably it's really the life of the face fabric in that case. thread rotting is generally considered the end of its normal life. if they're not using good enough thread, that's a design issue and likely not covered under warranty unless the piece performs much more poorly than the average one. broken snaps? usually warrantied either free or for a nominal fee, just like old zipper parts. velcro wears out. when it gets to the point it won't grip any more, it's past warranty. strangely, my wife's laptop just died, and now she needs mine to check with dell to see if it's covered.



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hey! I have the 8 person version of that tent...its a great tent for 4 kids, 2 parents in a car camping environment...


Sorry i just can't be so core as you though...WALMART FOREVER...


say, how did that last 5.7c/d mosspile go? the_finger.gif


Dave, it's really tough to judge from here, ya know? Nobody knows the amount use/abuse you dish or how you treat your gear. I'd be happy if I got 10 years out of goretex jacket personally. I view gators as disposable gear like gloves- trash'em and buy new ones. Just my view.


RuMR, you gotta admit the tent design sucks balls. The fly is joke, the poles are a joke for a tent that big and not a wind shedding design for sure. I use to expect allot out of TNF. The thing is I have a big 6 person tent too... from LL Bean though. The thing is designed well(sort of geodesic and huge,i can stand up in it) and came with (4) really beefy 3/8 inch expedition quality poles. price $375. It could be done well if TNF gave a shit. Obviously they don't. The LL bean beast sat tucked behind some trees during a month long ,Fall season, fly fishing trip on the Alaskan tundra surviving 75+mph winds and huge rain for several days without a rip or bent pole and was dry inside. Fuckin amazing for a tent that tall/big. The TNF would be a mangled,wet mess for nearly the same price, ya know?


And dude, that 5.7c/d is a project...shhhhhhhhhhhh. Just 12 more bolts by the 25ft crack and it'll go.... yellaf.gif

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DP, your right if the threads are rotting out it is a them problem. Most of the gear that I have that I feel like I got "life" out of is in the eight to ten year range. Some of my stuff I am with griz on. Gaiters, gloves (the ones I climb in) for instance I plan on them being disposable. I feel like jackets and pants that I'm hiking or sitting around camp should give me about 8-10 years. I usually find some new tech stuff that I replace it with first anyway. I usually don't bitch if the stitching breaks at one spot and I can patch it. If it's just coming apart all over I make em replace it.


Is that more in line with your first question?

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I used to work for Cascade Designs (thermarest, platypus, Sweetwater..., plus now all the MSR products). I did product development for them.


Cascade has a lifetime warranty on all products. Early thermarest were made with a fabric that was prone to degradation by bacteria (ever seen the development of a multitude of pinholes around the valve?). Cascade will replace those, no matter how old. You won't get a brand new first quality mat, but you will get a brand new "second" mat (meaning cosmetic defect(s)). The warranty does not cover damage due to negligence.


REI generally takes back Cascade's products because they know they can then send them back to Cascade for a credit (I know, I've seen the "returns" boxes from REI).


I've had many successful "returns" of Cascade or MSR products. A "return" means that I get me a new or reconditioned replacement, or the product is repaired. I have a whisperlite that I bought in 1987 (before I worked at Cascade) and it developed a leak in the fuel line last year (after I left Cascade). Got my stove reconditioned for free.


I'll have to admit that I know the people who run the returns/repairs department at Cascade, and I generally get excellent service, possibly slightly better than the average customer, but I still think that almost anybody would get the repair/replacement that I have gotten.


Had a NF tent that I had not used much that developed general leakage on the fly...I argued that while the tent was old, that it's use had been minimal, and never abusive (never left out in the sun for long periods), and that the fly should have still been good...they eventually provided a replacement.


Had a pair of LaSportive K3's that had broken shanks after 2-3 years. Got a new pair of boots.


Sent my BD Moonlight back when it malfunctioned (you needed to hold the wiring "just this way" for it to work). Got a new one.


Bought a pile of ropes from BD for the climbing club I belong to. Many of then developed serious "kinking" while rappelling, even with devices like the ATC. BD replaced them.


I think if you are reasonable with your expectations, and make a firm but respectful request, you generally can get a replacement of a used product.



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I have never encountered any TNF products that were any good except ome of the tents so I'm not surprised. I'm sure they are scheming a way to fuck the tents up even now if they haven't done it already.


Last I'd heard TNF let all of their tent designers go....so one could posit that, since they are owned by Vanity Fair, that they may have bra desingers designing their tents now. Heh.


on topic:



REI=usually good but not always




Deuter=mighty fine


My favorite one of these stories is my Marmot Arroyo that I bought about three years ago. It never really kept me warm enough, and it had cold spots and stuff. It was just never quite the bag I'd hoped it would be. Well last year I was just about to shell out the cash for a new bag, but thought I'd give Marmot a try first.


They put three ounces of down in the bag. Typical overfill is an ounce or two. They did it in just a couple of weeks door to door and paid the return shipping.


It was after the company got bought too. thumbs_up.gif

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My NF story...

I bought a NF VE-24 in 1979. I took great care of the tent, drying it thoroughly and storing it properly. About 1992 the waterproofing began to peel off the fly and the tent. I spent a year repairing it myself until someone suggested I take it back to NF. I did, and they replaced the tent and even let me pay $50 extra to upgrade to a VE-25. I can't say if they'd do that today.


I used to buy OR stuff until I got tired of hassling with their Returns folks. I had various gators and mitten covers fail and been accused of abusing them, etc. If using them is abusing them, then guilty as charged. I don't buy OR anymore.


Patagonia has been excellent with returns. The best thing is that, in my experience, their stuff rarely fails.


I've brought my various MSR stoves over the years to their facility and generally had them fixed and upgraded while I waited.


My opinion is that being stingy on returns is very short sighted. Some people will abuse you. However, when I've been stiffed by a company I just stop doing business with them forever and urge my friends to as well.

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Not sure I agree with you, griz. If he sent it back to TNF to see what could be done to repair or replace the tent, and their response was to give him a new one, then I'd say that's pretty good warranty policy on TNF's part, rather than the customer's "abuse" of that policy. Now, if the customer starts throwing hissy fits, demanding a replacement for their 13-yr-old tent from the outset, then I might reconsider, but in this case it just sounds like good customer service.

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