johndavidjr Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 So I reach a belay ledge and set up a two or three-point anchor & bring up second, & so far so good. Then, second is tied in to the cordellete, & leader shoves off. But just how critical is it that an additional anchor be first set below belayer? Let's assume the first, three-point anchor is multi-directional, but a little above belayer. Guides I've climbed with don't bother with setting additional anchor, and doing so is a pain, or sometimes perhaps impossible. I'd be interested in opinions/answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason_Martin Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 If you could be a little more specific with your question, it might be easier to answer. At first it seems that your asking about an additional anchor to keep the danger of an upward pull due to a fall at bay. But then you talk about how tight things are. If you clarify, you'll get a better response. Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndavidjr Posted November 15, 2004 Author Share Posted November 15, 2004 The comment about being tight on anchor is confusing. I mean tight only relative to the direction of an upward pull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason_Martin Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 An anchor set to eliminate upward pull may be important in some cases and not so important in others. If the belayer is beneath a roof or some other obstacle where a leader fall will lift them into the obstacle, a piece set to eliminate this is very important. If the anchor is made primarily of stoppers, which can sometimes pop out with an upward pull, you may want to include a piece that elimates this. If there are two people hanging off the cordellette, the combined weight of the two climbers at the anchor can sometimes eliminate the need for an upward piece. If there is some variety in the anchor -- in other words, the anchor includes a couple cams -- and there is no danger of the belayer being injured by a leader fall, then it's not so important to add a piece that will eliminate an upward pull on the anchor. Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 A little bit of motion in the belayer (getting pulled upwards) offers a form of a dynamic belay, which lessens the force on the top piece. (in a fall of the leader) Some sport climbers even jump a little right at the point when the rope goes taught to minimize forces on the leader and belayer for the same reason. So when would you not want this dynamic affect? Like Jason stated, you don't want to crash into a roof or if your anchor can not hold much of an upward pull. (slung horns are another case) But if there is a extreme difference in weight, you may want to hold that person down, even in simple top roping. Or you think your belayer might not have the skill to hold the brake while getting yarded upwards, then definately lock them down. Don't underestimate the forces involved as I have been pulled 6 feet up when catching a guy sport climbing before. The best way to answer your question is to imagine what would happen to your belayer if they got yarded upwards. Then decide if you need a piece to hold the belayer down. On a side note-If you are leading and your belayer chooses not to belay you at the base of the climb, then lock them down with anchors AND make that first piece of pro able to hold a outward force. This may involve a cam pointing outwards or two nuts in opposition. The horizontal vector for the force is very large and WILL slam them into the wall and they may realease the brake in a automatice self preservation move. I see this belay practice often and surprised more people don't bite it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shapp Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 Listent to genepires, A directional set as your first piece of pro is the most important thing you can do trad climbing. Nearly all of the people I know who have been injured were injured in ground falls due to zippering from the bottom up. It amazes me how many people do not use a directional for their first placement. Do it cause it can save your life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 That's correct. To use more precise language, you want an omni-directional placement as your first piece, that is, one that can take a pull from any direction. Not only does it prevent the zipper effect, but it protects the belay. I watched a fellow take a fall at Royal Columns. His first piece popped and every other piece zippered out except his second to last one. Had it not been for that, he would have decked. In this case, his first piece WAS an omni, but the route steepened dramatically, causing the rope to take a curving path. He should have placed a second omni-directional anchor where the route steepened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Sometimes you may make the belay anchor itself serve double purpose as the first, omni directional, peice of pro for the leader. Think about what will happen if a leader fall pulls the belayer up into the first peice of pro; will the belayers hand or belay device be sucked into a biner? If the belayer is yanked out of position, what forces may be placed on the anchor? It is often faster to put in a good directional to hold the belayer down than to think about all the angles that might be involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndavidjr Posted November 17, 2004 Author Share Posted November 17, 2004 Hmm... wouldn't Nick's suggestion screw up the rope and add lots of drag--- or I guess you could throw a long sling in there....& I suppose it of course depends on exactly where route goes.... my mind is slightly boggled & never considered the idea....I certainly appreciate suggestions about early pro in route. A guy died from groundfall at Gunks 10 days ago on 5.5 after piece pulled (theory is cam walked) and earlier 1-2 pieces weren't high enough to keep him off deck. (second guy to eat it there this year). --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 I would have to say that both the belay anchor and the first piece of pro should be omni-directional or in opposition with another piece if necessary. I learned this the hard way on a low angle traverse I led once. On setting up the belay for my second after crossing an overhanging arete fin I couldn't really get a decent omni-directional or opposition setup (I'm pretty good with pro, but this was an FA and we were out of rope, and so I had to go with what was available). My second who is a very good climber none the less fell near the end of the pitch after he had cleaned the last piece of pro. If a notch in the arete hadn't caught the rope he would have swung in a perfect radius out over the abyss. Given my hanging stance we definitely would have both been pulled off once he swung 180 degrees to my opposite side. There wasn't much I could have done different in that particular situation as there was no belay point before that and in those days of stoppers and hexes the options were somewhat limited. The previous posters are correct in saying most accidents are from a bad first piece of pro (sometimes in combination with a belayer standing back too far from the rock). The actual belay anchoring should be about solidly securing the belayer omni-directionally as your leader could take a dive before getting a first piece in. Such a fall should always be in the back of your mind when setting up anchors on a multi-pitch climb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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