Dane Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 You guys thought I was harsh deleting the drunks on INWR the other night Guess we have even more in common now being deleted from here as a group for discussing Dishman and INW climbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 It was moved to spray. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted July 21, 2004 Author Share Posted July 21, 2004 Funny a discussion on ethics and bolting is now spray? That a typical CC.com decision Jon? I won't disgree that adding gym holds to real rock is spray but I don't think the discussion is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 An indicator of how big this problem is to the general population. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted July 22, 2004 Author Share Posted July 22, 2004 The suggestion is again for a meeting. We had one and one side showed. How about another with both sides in attendance? Marty? Grady? Anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 I'll be there if it's a weekday after work. You know my feelings anyhow (live and let live) but I will try to attend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted July 22, 2004 Author Share Posted July 22, 2004 Thanks Marty. Please ask the others involved to find a time that will work for them and we'll work the schedule for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high_on_rock Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 I have read nearly every word of this thread, and find both sides on equal footing. Both seem to believe that since they are “right”, they have the god given right to act as they see fit. The “old school” following the traditional way of thinking that the person who climbed it first basically owns the rights to determine how the route will be climbed forever. The “class of 2000” saying that things have changed, and it is time to let “progress” take place. No one is really listening to eachother, other than to refine their own arguments. For the record, most of the people I climb with adhere to the Old School philosophy. Many of the people posting against Marty are my friends and climbing buddies. I really don’t like Marty, but have gained some level of respect for him by his unapologetic effort to promote a new manner of thinking toward climbing. I have played on numerous routes that Marty has put in and have enjoyed the heck out of them. To my knowledge, Marty hangs the routes at his own expense and effort, and I fully appreciate what he does. Marty is a bright person who cares about climbing, and has made significant contributions to the climbing world. Marty also happens to be someone that many, including myself, consider to be an arrogant ass. Marty makes numerous great points that people seem to ignore. Don’t let your views of the messenger diminish the validity of the message. I don’t climb at Mini or Post Falls to risk my life, I climb there to have fun with friends in as safe a manner as I can and hopefully get a little exercise. I could care less who climbed the route first 30 years ago, or whether they did it on top rope, with a hemp rope, with used boots, in the rain, or whatever. I want to go out and have fun on the rock today, not dwell on how much fun someone else had. The fact that they climbed it 40 years ago primarily means that they are older than I am: not my fault. They had their experience, now let me have mine. I have no more right to interfere with their experience, than they have to interfere with mine. The fact that the person who climbed it first has “traditionally” been granted deference in determining the route, does not mean it is the right answer. Slavery was traditional, that did not mean it was a good thing. Wife beating was traditional. Nor does the fact that a poll has been taken showing that most agree with the tradition validate the view; slavery probably won in numerous polls for years, do we then never change? The answer is calm rational conversation. When the sticky rubber climbing shoes came out, it was declared by many to be an unfair advantage and thus bad form (cheating) to us them. Times have changed and we now all use them. When many early routes were put in, it was in boots with a hemp rope tied around the waist; times have changed. Spokane once allowed such dangerous activities as rollerskating without a helmet; times change. Rumor is that in the olden days it was legal to swim in the river without a life preserver. For good or bad, traditions change. There have been a lot of changes to make climbing safer; does that mean that we are all punks now for refusing to face death boldly like those before us? I personally don’t want to face death or personal injury most of the time when I climb; I climb for the exercise and social aspect; not to defy death. If you want to climb run-out routes, skip a few of the bolts; why make me do it too? There are numerous routes that I think would be better with a couple more bolts. (please save all of your “need bigger balls” comments for other testosterone driven fools.) According to the old school, we must all forever climb the way some old guy did 30 years ago. What gives you the right to decide for me? If some putz bolts a crack, you are free to place gear and ignore the bolts. I would never bolt a crack, nor propose it be done, but what right do I have to impose my beliefs on other climbers? If you think that Marty and his buds are overbolting, simply boycott the bolts and ignore them. Then you can climb your way and I can climb my way, and they can climb their way. I love to climb at Mini because that is where many of my friends climb. I have to admit though that I am tired of walking around to hang a top rope, then walk back around after pulling the route. I would love to see Marty hang some chains at the top of many of the routes (hell, he can hang chains at the top of all of the routes if he wants, that way I can rap down and quit having to walk around). If someone wants to walk around that is fine by me, but why force me to do it your way. Bolt a few of those faces, I will clip the bolts and you can ignore them. The problem is that we have people on both sides that believe that they have the god given right to act for all of us. Pretentious jerks who bolt what they want when they want, to hell with everyone else. Pretentious jerks who go out and chop bolts, making the decision for all of us. Neither are ethically better than the other. How is chopping a bolt any less defacing to the rock than placing the bolt in the first place? It irritates me to climb a couple of the routes at Vantage where someone chopped the bolts, then new bolts were placed mere inches away from the old. What was accomplished? I could easily ignore the bolts, but the chopped stubs cannot be ignored. If I wanted, I could have skipped the bolts and walked around and hung a top rope, then walked around again after climbing; personally, I enjoyed the bolts and appreciate whoever hung them. (It is my belief that the person who chopped them later admitted it was wrong and wished he had not done it; I could be wrong though, as I claim no expertise in the matter.) One of my favorite climbs anywhere is the Monkey Face Pioneer route at Smith. At some point someone decided to put in a bolt ladder so that fat old asses like mine can climb it. Is that really any different than someone placing a plastic hold on the wall at dishman? I love the monkey face and sincerely appreciate whoever placed all of the aid on the wall, as it has provided me and many others a lot of pleasure. Should only people who can climb the 5.15 pitch get to enjoy the climb? There is a three pitch at Metaline Falls that has a move that is too tough for me, so I always hung a runner so I could cheat past it. I took a lot of people on a tremendous climb, giving them an experience they will always remember, cheating every time. I also enjoyed it every time. Perhaps I was not facing death enough to satisfy some, but that was not my reason for being there. Don’t misunderstand my position: I personally would be embarrassed to have hung a plastic hold in the middle of the face at dishman, but in reality it is no different than placing an aid ladder on Monkey Face. As long as I am willing to pull on the aid bolts and pull on a quick draw now and then, I have completely lost any right to complain about someone pulling on a plastic hold. While I would never drill a finger pocket to cheat my way up a rock that I cannot climb, there is no real difference from drilling holes in the rock to hang aid bolts. From my perspective, anyone who has pulled their way up the Pioneer route has lost the ethical higher ground from which to look down their noses at Marty for drilling finger pockets. Both are using holes drilled in the rock to climb rock that they are not skilled enough to climb. Merely my opinion. I have also been on easier routes, and bypassed bolts that I either did not think were necessary or just did not feel like using for one reason or another. I did not cuss the person who placed the bolt, nor did I threaten to pull the bolt. I merely climbed past it and enjoyed the day. If I am in the mood to face death then I climb unroped (as I often do) bypassing bolts and great gear placements. Does that mean that everyone should have to climb it that way? I enjoy placing gear, I enjoy clipping bolts, I enjoy climbing unroped. I often cheat on routes by hanging, pulling on draws, or using other aid techniques. How about letting me decide how I want to climb each route, and you decide how you want to climb the route. It seems simple. Whatever anyone can do to make climbing safer for others, they have my support. Whatever we can do to make the fringe groups come more toward the center, I am for that too. Rather than one fringe bolting everything and another fringe destroying the rock by chopping the bolts; I suggest calm rational conversation toward other solutions. Rather than “I will do it my way and you can go to hell,” perhaps we can quit pissing at eachother long enough to actually listen and enter calm rational discussion. Rather than Dane or his crew making all of the decisions, rather than Marty or his crew making all of the decisions, perhaps we should gather representative members of the local climbing community and discuss ways of bringing the factions together toward compromise; include (merely out of respect) the person who had the first accent; include members from the Old School; include members of The Class of 2000, and include others who climb at the area. Perhaps we could come to some compromises and agreements thus reducing the amount of pissing on each other, and reduce the number of chopped bolts desecrating the rock. Education, understanding, and brotherhood. Instead of invading countries to impose our flawed ethical views on others, … (oops, wrong subject.) Tolerance for others, and openness to discussing new ideas is the key to living in a society. Marty, I appreciate the routes you have put up, and I appreciate all that you do for the climbing community. I fully appreciate the fact that you have stood unapologetically through the derogatory posts blaming you for every evil done to rock; and continued to try to make some very valid points. I will never invite you into my home, but if I bought a rock I would surely invite you to bring your bolt-gun over and invest as much of your own time and money as you see fit, and send you home with a large and sincere “thank you.” If you want to develop a couple rocks around Cle Elum, let me know and I will show you where they are at; I can tell you that the local high school students would fully appreciate your time and effort. Peace and Brotherhood! EC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 Funny a discussion on ethics and bolting is now spray? That a typical CC.com decision Jon? I won't disgree that adding gym holds to real rock is spray but I don't think the discussion is. Dane, I actually have quite a bit of respect for all the people involved in that they have remained somewhat civil in what seems to be very heated topic. What I don't think is necessary is to liter a forum who's main purpose is trip reports with countless threads that easily could have remained in one thread. Additionally, you took it upon yourself to call out one person in particular in the thread that was moved. It appears that you have taken it upon yourself to delete people's opinions on your board so they are posting them here now. This is nothing person, nothing to do with your opinion on the subject, I'm just telling you that I don't want that forum litered with stuff that isn't trip report beta related. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted July 22, 2004 Author Share Posted July 22, 2004 Thanks Jon. Makes sense. My first impression was the thread was deleted since there was no shadow. My apologies for jumping to conclusions. If it's not climbing related this is where you post it. Since this is how spray is definded how about a minute of your time and add a ethics section to the board? Since this discussion and the others mentioned are all about climbing? For the record INWR has a set of printed rules and if you violate that by a useless personal attack the post is generally going to get deleted. Similar rules are common on most civil BBS sites. New to climbing I know EC, good post. We agree more than you might first believe as does Marty I think. My intentional prodding of Grady and Marty was to get the people involved to admit to what they had done first and then get them to talk about some kind of compromise that all could agree to after seeing the extremes at Dishman. I keep seeing a safety issue mentioned that seems to justify over bolting . That I don't agree with. If climbing were so unsafe I think we would have a lot less climbers not a whole lot more. Hard to get anything done until you know the players and everyone decides it is in their best interest to be involved in the community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted July 22, 2004 Author Share Posted July 22, 2004 Dishman Rocks Resource Group has scheduled a meeting room on Tuesday August 24, 7PM upstairs at the Spokane REI, 1125 N Monroe St Spokane, WA 99201 (509) 328-9900 Anyone interested in the Dishman Natural Area or climbing there is encouraged to attend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 So Dane, Who exactly comprises (titles, positions, how they were elected to such an esteemed position, etc.) the Dishman Rocks Resource Group? Never heard of it till now. Maybe I'll run for president of the group, or is it a tyranny? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted July 23, 2004 Author Share Posted July 23, 2004 REI needed a name to book the room to this morning, so I made DRRG up on the spot and told them who I was and why we were asking for the space. I even asked why they didn't sell the local Marty Bland guide book. Hate to think you are being a dickhead about getting the community involved in Dishman, Marty. I just misread your tone I suspect. At your suggestion I booked the meeting room midweek from 7PM to closing at REI, as it should be easy for all to find and they have room for 100 people. Date far enough out that those who are interested can plan for it. The idea is to have a Spokane local involved (not sure who yet still asking), that has had nothing to do with the ethics issue. Someone that all sides can respect, and have them moderate a meeting during a discussion on the different views and then detail who is interested in the resource, (the rocks and area that is in a natural state that is usable for recreation) its future mangagement and how they want to be involved. I suspect we'll all get dedicated floor time to make our positions known but I will leave that up to the moderator on how the meeting is organized and ran. The land owner, the Dishman Hills Natural Area group, The Mountaineers, a couple of trail organizations (bikes and horse I think), Rock and Ice, local media, REI's recreation folks, the Access Fund, the WCC, City of Spokane and Spokane Valley, Spokane County are all invited and anyone else who is interested can add their 2 cents and see where we go from here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drater Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 So Dane, Who exactly comprises (titles, positions, how they were elected to such an esteemed position, etc.) the Dishman Rocks Resource Group? Never heard of it till now. Maybe I'll run for president of the group, or is it a tyranny? Good idea Marty. Can I be the official spokesperson if you become Prez? Involving the authorities (land use managers) usually leads to way more problems than it solves. I foresee the climbing experience at Dishman to worsen from this. Hope I'm wrong. Blowboarder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted July 23, 2004 Author Share Posted July 23, 2004 Ya, shit, the land use managers are likely to decide we need more bolt ons, grid bolts, garbage dumped, route signage and chipped holds. What the hell was I thinking? The bastards are sure to wreck the place! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high_on_rock Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 It seems that everyone was invited other than the attorneys and risk management people. Perhaps we can truly preserve the place by getting everyone locked out. It seems that all of the preservationists have been invited, where are the sportclimbing groups? Is the feeling that we need more rules, restrictions; perhaps pay dues and user fees to fund parking and climbing cops? Get the city council involved so that they can mandate helmets. This is progress? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drater Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 Ya, shit, the land use managers are likely to decide we need more bolt ons, grid bolts, garbage dumped, route signage and chipped holds. What the hell was I thinking? The bastards are sure to wreck the place! Dane, Seems to me that's already been taken care of, IMO, on the climbing end of things. However, it remains to be seen if your actions will wreck the access situation. Come on, consider the Spokane Parking Garage fiasco. And these are the people you want involved to mediate this debate? Ethics are only beliefs, & just like religious ones, only valuable to the person or people who hold them. Would you really rather see climbing banned at DH than people violating your ethical stance? You must consider that as a possibility, the precedent has been set in other areas where land-use officials with no prior knowledge of climbing protocol have been involved to settle disputes within a climbing community. Personally, I agree with your position on the ethics of DH. I don't agree with the route you have chosen to take to enforce your belief system on others. Just because you were there first doesn't mean you have a right to determine what goes on now. Just ask the Native Americans. I believe it's called manifest destiny. BB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leearden Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 I like the direction this thread is heading, we all (all of us that read the climbing rags) know what could happen if we keep being childish and insulting each other, --Dishman could become enjoyed even less by us all. Maybe this is all cyber-bs and will blow over, but I'd like to talk to some people sooner than later. If we keep on pushing each other's buttons for another month when the REI meeting takes place with " the man" (land owners, city authorities, whoever)in attendance, things might go south fast. I'll go climbing out there on Monday or Tuesday evening after work (5 or 6pm), Dane will be in town so we can all do some pitches and talk some shit in person. The hardmen will probably be resting from their weekend trips to somewhere cool, so maybe tuesday (july 27) is better? when can YOU make it? Monday or Tuesday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Exactly High on Rock and Blowboarder. Since Dane lives in Issaquah and cant enforce the bolt ban himself he can if he just shuts the crag down. Is this the idea or not Dane? I really think we can do without the big meeting with all the "important people" present. Thats inviting trouble for the crag and is hostile to climbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 Jon, I think this topic, while not fit for this TR related forum it is not spray. I'd say the Climbers Board may be appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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