Town Crier

[Guest]

A buddy and I were on Town Crier at Index on Thursday and just so happened to pull off a pretty critical bolt on the bolt ladder on the upper 5th pitch. We tried to get around it but couldn't find a way. To get around it you would either need to sink a new bolt or bring a 10- 15 ft. stick clip. Either way, I thought it might provide useful information for anyone heading up there soon.

[gumby]

I saw you guys up there today. did the bolt snap off above where you had the line fixed? When I saw you it looked like there were 3 or 4 of you at the hanging belay at the start of the 4th? pitch with a line fixed above you. Thanks for the beta, I was planning to do that tomorrow, perhaps I should change my plans?

[DPS]

Tim,

Were you with Nick?

Dan

[Guest]

Dan,

Yep, Nick snapped the bolt right off the ladder and took a ride. Not to fun. We needed the power of Dano to help us throught the blank section!

Gumby,

The line you saw was either the lead line or the rap line. The leader descended off a couple of nasty pins with the haul line and cleaned the pitch while I belayed him down on the lead line. So that would explain the ropes you saw going up the 5th pitch. Go up and take a look at Green Dragon. It looked nice!

Its sunny and there is dry Index granite. Happy Climbing!

[Wallstein]

I am responsible for the bolt coming off on Town Crier. I replaced all of the bolts on the route with "new" (read shitty) bolts. I have used identical bolts to these numerouse times without problem. The ones up there right now are 1/4" by 1 1/2" split shank bolts. They are very similir to the old standard quarter incher bolt. These were a large upgrade from the 1/8" by 3/4" that Beckey had put in back in '66. I choose these bolts because I didn't want the route to turn into and A1 industrial climb but still be safe. Well I guess I choose wrong, because this is now the second bolt that has broke off and I would consider every other one extremely suspect. All I can figure is I got a really shitty box of bolts. I have had friends from the American Safe Climbing Association take a look at the bolts and they gave them the OK (before any of them broke).

PLEASE DO NOT ATTEMPT TOWN CRIER UNTIL NEXT WEEKEND. I am going to borrow a bosch maybe tomorrow and try and save my name by replacing all of the bolts with new stainless 3/8". I have already done this for most of the anchors at the belays.

So if anyone has a bosch I can borrow for a day please let me know. I have had to hand drill the rest of them up there and I don't have the time to drill 10 new 3/8" holes by hand.

And maybe someone from the board would be willing to go up there and give me a hand with it. TimL? We could knock it out in a day no problem. All of my partners already have plans for the weekend and I was planning on going to smith but this is probably a little more important to get done.

So sorry to all, my goal to make town crier safer for the masses has (temporarily) failed.

If anyone had any questions or would like to help please email me at m_schaefera5@hotmail.com

Mike 'feelin pretty shitty' Schaefer

[OCK]

Mike, I cannot do it this comming weekend, but I have a Bulldog, fresh battery, and lot's of 3/8 hangers and anchors.

I have about 80 3/8 x 3-1/2 hardend steel anchors. I have been using the hardened steel because I hear that they are stronger than most stainless anchors. If you get galvanic corrosion (200mv potential diff. between the anchor & the stone) they can get crevic corrosion, and pit's rendering them almost as usless as any other anchor. I am mixed on what is better. On the salt routes near squamish I like the stainless, but in any case if there is a potential diferential between the stone & the hanger by 200mv then they start to give up the free electrons, the bigger the diff (higher potential). the faster the exchange. This causes them to fail. it works the similar to a zinc anode on a boat.A natural phenomenon. In any case I am not the expert on it. I just have been given that explaination myself.

I also have 80-90 1/4 x 2-1/2 anchors with about 35 stainless hangers i bought for a trip in AK, but did not use them all on if you want to use them.

I liked you philosophy of not putting lead anchors in every hole. Maybe use some 3/8 and several 1/4 between 3/8?I would like to help you restore the route if you still need help. So far I look open on march 31-1, but if you need to go sooner let me know.

you can contact me at ockjr@msn

regards,

john

 

[tomrogers]

How did you break the bolt? Was it body weight or a fall. Last time I was up there it was looking great and very safe. Much better then several years ago anyway.

And yes I prefer not to have boomer anchors for bolt ladders. Just new rivets would be okay too. Thanks for the hard work Mike.

P.S. to the other guy, DO NOT install non stainless steel primary anchors just because they are stronger. Once the corrosion begins the strength advantage is gone forever.

regards,

tom

[OCK]

Tom,I think I am the other guy you mentioned.

I realize this is a seperate issue.

Do you have a engineering background in this area?

I am seriously curious and would like to learn more about it if you can help?

would you please share with me/us where you got your information or opinion?

here is my email- ockjr@msn.com

As I mentioned, I am not the expert on crevic corrosion, galvanic corrosion, or electrolisis.

Initially we held the same opinion as you, but later after testing, and study, we found in our field the facts consistent with what I am relating to you.

I would rather base my understanding on a fact, rather than a popular opinion, or myth.

Also, we are setting new routes & I would like to make sure we use the best materials suited to the job.

Thanks!

regards,

john

[backcountrydog]

wallstein,

if i may, a couple of things, 1) thanks for putting in the effort to replace what needed replacing.

2) when the route was put up, the bolters were using what was, at the time and of course, within reason, the best tools for the job. 1/4 inchers were the standard. they didnt take that long to drill and its what climbers of that era were using. im sure they werent laughing with each other at the thought of these bolts breaking or pulling out, sometimes under body weight, on the generation of climbers to follow. if they had bosch's, and the ability to see the future, 3/8 might have been the choice.

the point is that they didnt take it upon themselves to contrive some mix of metal so that THEY could give following climbers something to be afraid of as they clip a chunk of metal. the exciting part isnt supposed to be the bolt ladder. dont take it upon yourself to modify or affect the fear factor of an existing climb (especially a classic) so that it can seem like its 1966. none of the other gear you use or slings replaced on most climbs from year to year is from 1966, why the bolts?

its 2001, not 1966 and bolting responsibly should mean that if your going to put a bolt with a hanger in the rock, put in a good one. you'll make more friends doing that than tying up the belays pounding metal for weeks on one of our classics, all the while thinking way too much about what you want everybody else's climbing experience to be.

there is a bolt ladder there to span a section of rock, and your not going to turn an A2 into an A1 by putting good bolts in the A1 bolt ladder. im glad your replacing the mank up there with what you should have the first time (and not 1/4 in x 3/8 dowlels or something). plus it offers the option of free climbing without someone changing it further.

those bolts broke because 1/4 inchers suck, regardless of who OK'd them.

if you need a bolts or hangers or a partner with a drill, ill donate.

[Kyagpa]

I think that safety was what mike had in mind when he replaced the bolts originally! I dont think that he would go up there to make the climb harder or esier just safer, and you have to give him credit for taking on the responsibility himself in saying he put the bolt or bolts in question in after one had failed, and then taking imediat action to reconcile the problem. Thanks Mike

[OCK]

Mike comes accross as being obsessed with doing the job right.

Mike came by my place this morning and grabbed the bosch roto heading to Index.

I just met Mike personally for the first time.It was apparent that Mike knows his buisness.

He's into doing the job right with the right tools & the right hardware.

I am 99% sure he's up there this moment rapping down by himself on the 5th pitch upgrading the damaged lead anchors & doing comunity service work.

If someone had the time and inclination they could meet him at the base with with a cold half rack.

I am sure he would not frown at a cold one after replacing that many anchors.

If I see Mike in levenworth this weekend the beer is on me Mike.

Thanks for the service work!

ock

 

[backcountrydog]

i dont think mike was putting in bolts that he thought were going to break. but i dont think safety was the only issue, (see-"not an A1 industrial climb"). but your comment on trying to make the climb easier or harder gets me thinking. the only way to make a bolt ladder harder, without moving the original bolt hole, would be to put in something that had the potential to fail. im pretty sure he didnt move the holes, he just didnt want to make an "A1 industrial climb", therefore, the 1/4 inchers.

and my point was that to prevent unnecessary replacing of metal every 5 or 10 years, further scarring rock around the holes, just step in to the year 2001 and put in the bolts that OUR era of climbing has deemed the best for the job. the idea should be to preserve the rock and the climbing area, not the 1960's era 'metal of choice'. otherwise why dont we leave the rock alone and go practice sketchy bolt ladders on some man-made structure.

as far as credit for coming clean on putting in sub-par bolts to begin with, your right, thanks for stepping up and taking responsibility.

and once again, thanks for the time and effort in replacing what needed to be replaced.

[erik]

next time anyone sees mike, buy him a beer. he has put a lot off effort and taken a lot of heat for the whole thing. mike had the best intentions and still does. right now as we toil away at our jobs, he is really working by replacing the ladders. i think that the new setup will be quite nice and make the ladder alot more friendly. newbies got a lot more to worry about then clipping sub-standard bolts.

about 50% or more of the bolts were actually 1/8" sketch masters and not those bomber 1/4"s.

plus redoing the ladder today is alot harder since i have his lead line in t-town, so he has to use some 43m 4x4 tow rope.

jah