The Rock Warrior's Way

[Thinker]

The Rock Warrior's Way: Mental Training for Climbers

 

anybody read it yet? worthwhile?

[layton]

sounds cool

who's da publisher?

[lummox]

i have read an article by ilgner. pretty cool attitude.

[Dru]

After conversing with Mr. Ilgner about his book on Gripped bulletin board - I accused him of spamming and he basically admitted it and apologized - I found a copy of his book and perused it.

 

I think the book Fern gave me called "Self Hypnosis in 2 Days" is just as effective and costs less. However, it is not as climbing specific.

[layton]

self hypnosis is a good tool

some yoga practitioners call it "AT" or "autogenic training" which I practice sometimes.

 

calm blue ocean

calm blue ocean

calm blue ocean

GODDAMNIT IT FUCKING SAID CALM BLUE MOTHERFUCKING OCEAN...TAKE,,TAKE!!!

calm blue ocean

calm blue ocean

[EWolfe]

michael_layton said:

self hypnosis is a good tool

some yoga practitioners call it "AT" or "autogenic training" which I practice sometimes.

 

calm blue ocean

calm blue ocean

calm blue ocean

GODDAMNIT IT FUCKING SAID CALM BLUE MOTHERFUCKING OCEAN...TAKE,,TAKE!!!

calm blue ocean

calm blue ocean

 

You should try "Calm Blue Lake".

 

Oceans are rarely calm. Om.

[Dru]

i like to log-on to cc.com in the middle of the crux and focus on the lawgoddesses' whirly spiral

[layton]

I just looked at his website.

The scary thing is that some guy wrote a response whose first and last name and the town he lives in is my COMPLETE NAME (michael anderson layton). CREEPY~

 

"Arno, I just started chapter 2, and I am in awe. I feel like you know me personally, because everything you say about the Ego, negative self-talk, and fear-based motivation fit me to the letter. I have already started applying some of your principles, but most importantly, I have been thinking a lot about why I climb, and what I expect to get out of it. I anticipate a very different climbing season this fall, however, I think it will be one of those situations where you get out what you put in. My Ego is a powerful force, and will be hard to work around...I'm optimistic, though."

--Mike Anderson, Layton, UT -see. isn't that weird?

[layton]

I'm more enlightended that you are. buy my program. I hate this kinda crap.

[Dru]

what if you moved to Layton, Ut., and everyone in the town was named Mike or Michelle Anderson, and they all looked just like you

[layton]

maybe I'm a mormon and don't even know it?

[Mtguide]

Hi Thinker;

 

I got Ilgner's book and worked through it about a year and a half ago and found it very useful.I've practiced Zen meditation for over 30 yrs, and so have found many parallels between the two experiences;meditation and climbing tend to inform each other.Ilgner's book simply does the best job I've seen so far of bringing Zen/warrior's approach to bear on specific issues of performance,focus,perception,fear,frustration,etc.,in climbing.And in many ways,Ilgner brings climbing to the level of a practice or "Way"(path,discipline,teaching) in and of itself.It's a little pricy($ 60+) but it's definitely been worth the price of a Camalot,to me.And of course,it's not just a book you read,it's a course and a workbook that you compete chapter by chapter,and so it teaches you his method of observing your thoughts and reactions,and how to work with them,in other words,how to work on yourself.Sort of like teaching a man to fish,rather than just giving him a fish.Once you learn how to learn,you can apply it anything.I think this book is useful for a lot more than just climbing. Oh,and BTW,not only has my climbing improved,but I get a lot more enjoyment from it whether I succeed or not;like Alex Lowe said about the best climber being the one who's having the most fun,being present in the moment and finding all you need right then and there.

[lummox]

that zen and meditation shiznit may work for some. i found it more ineresting to go the warriors way by heavy drug ingestion just like don juan would prescribe. you know: peyote and mushrooms and olde e 800. like 'find a path with heart and follow it to the end'. when you faced down a couple bad acid trips while operating heay machinery then a bad runout on a climb seems reasonable.

[lancegranite]

The Rock warrior... 5.10+ R

Highly reccomended, I hid a roach in a hueco at the 3rd pitch belay...

[Mtguide]

lummox said:

that zen and meditation shiznit may work for some. i found it more ineresting to go the warriors way by heavy drug ingestion just like don juan would prescribe. you know: peyote and mushrooms and olde e 800. like 'find a path with heart and follow it to the end'. when you faced down a couple bad acid trips while operating heay machinery then a bad runout on a climb seems reasonable.

 

Any Zen master or true warrior/teacher such as a 'man of knowledge' like Don Juan would agree that there are as many paths to realization as there are people.It's worth noting,though,if you've read the other Castaneda books,that,beginning with the second book,"A Separate Reality",when Castaneda goes back to visit the brujo Don Juan again,things change bigtime,fast.Expecting to continue further explorations into the nature of reality and knowledge through hallucinogens,Castaneda has spent time gathering more peyote and datura,etc..Presenting this to Don Juan when he arrives,he is taken aback at the reaction;"Ah!Idiot!,says Don Juan;"that was just to loosen up your thick skull,to get you out of your books and paper and pencils,always writing everything down,trying to find patterns and methods,always organizing everything with your stupid science! I had to shake your ass up,get you to break up all that nonsense! The drugs have nothing to do with any of it,nothing whatsoever! For you, this was necessary;for those who live in this desert,they are already alive to begin with.Now throw that garbage out;we have work to do."(Not verbatim;I don't have the book here in front of me, but that's the gist of what Don Juan says).

And from there,(at least as Castaneda writes it) the real Journey begins.It's a lot bigger,deeper and stranger than Castaneda had even begun to imagine.He begins to find out much more about why 'brujo' means "sorcerer".And it's all substance-free.At one point Don Juan even comments on bars and smoking;when Castaneda narrowly escapes being killed by an evil entity after an evening of drinking and dancing at a cantina,Don Juan tells him,"You had no business wasting your time in such a place, with that kind of foolish idleness; next time you may not be so lucky." Later,walking through a crowd gathered to hear a political revolutionary,Don Juan points out to Castaneda that the speaker is smoking and gesturing with the lit cigarette as he speaks;"He can't really be serious about anything he's saying..",says don Juan.

That's what I like about Ilgner's book and way of training,and about Zen;there are no shortcuts:you have to do the work,grapple with the difficulties,sit down,gather the mind and look into things with persistence and determination."All true paths lead through mountains";my teacher once just barely made it back in time from a night of drunken partying to get to his teacher's place for morning meditation and breakfast,showing up soaking wet and covered head to toe in thick black mud,after frantically pedaling his bicycle clear across a huge city in pouring rain,and falling into a big mud puddle at the bottom of the steps.The teacher behaved as if nothing was the least bit out of the ordinary,made not a single comment on his appearance or condition,and continued as usual;his student had shown up on time,had done what he had agreed to do.But about six months later,during a break in a week long sesshin(meditation intensive),his teacher came up beside him,and gently nudging an elbow in his ribs,said quietly to my teacher,"You know,you can do whatever you want,if you can remain clear; but if you can't remain clear,you can't do it."My teacher who hadn't thought of the incident in months,knew instantly what he was talking about.

The point is,drugs,etc.are not the point;what you experience there is just another state of mind-and once you get that point,you don't need to do drugs anymore.Ilgner talks about 'observing' your thoughts,feelings,reactions;my teacher used to say"keep a watchful and elegant mind;but don't get too attached to that,either".Although I know that quite a few people climb,operate heavy equipment etc. behind gage or brew,I don't climb,ski or drive stoned or on anything else,and I refuse to climb(in particular) with anyone who is.I really enjoy it more when I'm clear and truly free,direct confrontation with reality.When you get it out of your own juices,you know it's you,not anything else,doing the talking.And it only takes a split second to make a mistake;lots of times when we get back to the car after a climb,we'll say that now comes the most dangerous part of the trip:driving home.Good to be clear for that,too.Then you can go out and do it again next time.

---------------------------------------------

Remember that courage and strength are naught without prudence;and a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime.Do nothing in haste;look well to each step;and from the beginning,think what may be the end."'

-Edward Whymper,first man to climb the Matterhorn

 

"Many years I lived in cities,

roaming the dusty crowded streets.

Tried drugs,but couldn't make immortal;

What's the use of all that noise and money?

I'll sleep by the creek and purify my ears;

all day long clouds come and go;

If your heart was like mine,

You'd get it and be right here.

-(Mtguide paraphrase of Han Shan, Cold Mountain

Poems by Gary Snyder)

 

 

 

[Dru]

but the first book of Castaneda is the one based on his anthropological research, and starting with the second ones is the stuff he made up at least that's what people told me

 

personally i was told there was 4 books, read all 4 now i find out there's like 8

[Mtguide]

Dru said:

but the first book of Castaneda is the one based on his anthropological research, and starting with the second ones is the stuff he made up at least that's what people told me

personally i was told there was 4 books, read all 4 now i find out there's like 8

 

There's definitely still a lot of confusion and lack of verification as to what Castaneda did or didn't do,what is fact or fiction in his writings.what is known is that Don Juan is,or was(not sure if he's still living)a real person.My teacher was invited to a very secret conference held by the schools of Anthropology and Psychology/Psychiatry at UC Riverside in 1975,and the surprise guests were Castaneda and Don Juan.From what little I was able to glean from my teacher,in 3 days of questioning and discussion by a regular holy man jam of eminent researchers,Zens,gurujis,physicists,biochemists,philosophers,shrinks,Gestaltists,shamans,etc.,Don Juan pretty much blew everyone away,left a lot of people scratching their heads,with some feeling to see if their heads were still there.At one point a very eminent psychiatric researcher asked Don Juan,"Well,these 'entities',the 'allies' and 'powers' and 'enemies',these are just phenomena or perceptions in the mind,isn't that right?I mean,they don't actually exist in reality,do they?" To which Don Juan replied,"Oh no;they exist indeed;they are actually"there".Stunned silence all around for some minutes,followed by nervous rustling of papers and coughs,people shifting uncomfortably in their chairs.Wrong guy to ask if you were looking for some kind of solid ground.No photographs or recordings were allowed,and Castaneda and Don Juan arrived and departed the room while all attendees were to remain seated.One drawing submitted was later approved by Don Juan,after he had taken an eraser and removed a little more than half of one side of the face.I don't know; for all we know DJ could be a cab driver from Tijuana or Brooklyn-but they are damned interesting reading,these books.

Anyone else know of more recent/complete material on this? Oh,and hmm,I guess we WERE talking about climbing,yeah?

Edited November 15, 2003 by Mtguide

[arlen]

Mtguide said:

 

There's definitely still a lot of confusion and lack of verification as to what Castaneda did or didn't do,what is fact or fiction in his writings.what is known is that Don Juan is,or was(not sure if he's still living)a real person.My teacher was invited to a very secret conference held by the schools of Anthropology and Psychology/Psychiatry at UC Riverside in 1975,and the surprise guests were Castaneda and Don Juan.

 

I did a master's degree in American Indian Studies at the U of A in Tucson, and where there may have been some belief among anthros during the 70s and 80s that Casteneda wasn't full of shit, that has pretty much evaporated. It's nice literature, but the Yaquis don't even practice the kind of medicine that DJ did. Their real culture is interesting enough, though: every Easter, they stage a massive outdoor mass cycle where Jesus is dragged into hell and sodomized by Satan for 3 days. Meanwhile the church ladies repel attacks by Yaqui gang bangers dressed up as conquistadors and lawyers and chase them into a bonfire. Great way to spend a Sunday, but harder to make a fortune selling off to flakes.

[Dru]

Well MY teacher went to a secret meeting in an underground city in Tibet with a bunch of immortal lamas and spacemen

[Thinker]

Mtguide said:

Hi Thinker;

 

I got Ilgner's book and worked through it about a year and a half ago and found it very useful.I've practiced Zen meditation for over 30 yrs, and so have found many parallels between the two experiences;meditation and climbing tend to inform each other.Ilgner's book simply does the best job I've seen so far of bringing Zen/warrior's approach to bear on specific issues of performance,focus,perception,fear,frustration,etc.,in climbing.And in many ways,Ilgner brings climbing to the level of a practice or "Way"(path,discipline,teaching) in and of itself.It's a little pricy($ 60+) but it's definitely been worth the price of a Camalot,to me.And of course,it's not just a book you read,it's a course and a workbook that you compete chapter by chapter,and so it teaches you his method of observing your thoughts and reactions,and how to work with them,in other words,how to work on yourself.Sort of like teaching a man to fish,rather than just giving him a fish.Once you learn how to learn,you can apply it anything.I think this book is useful for a lot more than just climbing. Oh,and BTW,not only has my climbing improved,but I get a lot more enjoyment from it whether I succeed or not;like Alex Lowe said about the best climber being the one who's having the most fun,being present in the moment and finding all you need right then and there.

 

One of the things that originally hooked me on climbing was the intense focus I was able to generate when climbing. I've found that as I push my limits and abilities, the level of focus has decreased, and reading about this book has reminded me of those early years. I think I'll get a copy.

 

$60? I see it on Amazon for $17 list price (176 pages, published June 2003). Was there an earlier (more extensive) edition?

 

Thanks to all for the input.