Pickets or Deadmen?

[slothrop]

If the snow's that deep and soft, just self-belay with your snowshoes. Or your shovel.

[catbirdseat]

A friend of mine climbed Pilchuck once in winter by a gully below the lookout that was supposed to be an ice climb. The snow was so soft, he had to trench his way up with his snow shovel!

[Dru]

if the snow is that deep and soft, you could self arrest with your bare hands, most likely. and they'd probably be safer than trying to use your pick.

[daler]

catbirdseat,

 

of course, but the way matt describes it is not the same as you describe. Matt is talking about running the cable that is attached to the middle hole up through a caribiner at the snow level. the way matt describes it puts more overall force on the piece.

 

dale

[oldclimber]

I occasionally carry pickets , but rarely use them. I think the last time was in the upper section of Gibraltar Chute some years ago when the snow got hard and we felt the need for an anchored belay for a couple of short sections. My question is how to pound the damn things in when you are carrying only a standard axe with an adze ? I've never found a method that didn't seem clumsy or that didn't tear up the nylon leash tied thru the hole in the head of my axe. Suggestions other than carrying a hammer ?

[mattp]

daler said:

Matt is talking about running the cable that is attached to the middle hole up through a caribiner at the snow level. the way matt describes it puts more overall force on the piece.

 

Dale-

 

I admit that I have never seen this recommended by anyone, and there may be some drawbacks. But I would think "force placed on the picket" would not be among them if you are meaning a compressive foce along the axis of the picket. Perhaps you are thinking the angle of the pull will be altered by the fact that the cable from the attachment point and the carabiner form a triangle and thus, perhaps, a slight outward pull (perpendicular to the snow surface) may be imparted? Is there also introduced some downward pull (parallel with the snow surface) on lower portions of the picket? If so, might this lessen overall tendency for the picket to pull out ?

 

I speculated about using the cable in a vertical placement, but in fact I do generally clip a carabiner to the appropriate hole and ignore the cable unless placing the picket like a deadman. But the question was, I believe, "is there some way to use the cable."

 

Vector analysis and speculation, please.

 

[Dru]

oldclimber said:

I occasionally carry pickets , but rarely use them. I think the last time was in the upper section of Gibraltar Chute some years ago when the snow got hard and we felt the need for an anchored belay for a couple of short sections. My question is how to pound the damn things in when you are carrying only a standard axe with an adze ? I've never found a method that didn't seem clumsy or that didn't tear up the nylon leash tied thru the hole in the head of my axe. Suggestions other than carrying a hammer ?

 

turn your axe on its side, and hammer with the "flat of the axe" being careful to not hit the webbing.... or with the upper part of the shaft, same deal. it wont let you really POUND like you can on a pin, but it will let you get a picket into hard snow.

[obsydian]

cjain said:

It it worth carrying the 36 inch pickets over the 24 inche ones?

A few years ago when I first got into this equipment raquet, I was told to buy a picket. When I saw that the 36" was only $3 more then the 24", I couldn't pass up that great bargian! I'm going to cut it down to 24" as soon as I can find the time!

[catbirdseat]

I speculated about using the cable in a vertical placement, but in fact I do generally clip a carabiner to the appropriate hole and ignore the cable unless placing the picket like a deadman. But the question was, I believe, "is there some way to use the cable."

 

Vector analysis and speculation, please.

No one tried to answer Matt's question. If you clip to the cable (without altering it's attachment point by use of a biner) in the pound in (endwise) mode, the cable MUST be able to cut a channel in the snow to provide a direct path to the load. Otherwise, it would serve to pull the picket out. One must hold the picket in and jerk on the cable using the sling or biner to ensure it cuts the snow. If this is not possible, cut a channel with the pick of your axe. Assuming, the preceding, the picket used in this fashion is much more like a deadman and is many times stronger than a pound in with the attachment at the surface.

[plexus]

I carry two pickets. And other than practicing glacier rescue, I've only used them twice for belays. There have been a couple of spring climbs I wished I had them on (steep sloppy snow over cliffs). Real light and have finally figured out how to store them on my pack and reach them with one hand and without having to take my pack off.

 

Have only seen a fluke in stores....wouldn't even know what to do with one of those.

[Norman_Clyde]

 

Have only seen a fluke in stores....wouldn't even know what to do with one of those.

 

I have a big fluke that I bought right after reading Freedom of the Hills and concluding that flukes must be superior, because the angle of the cable through the snow caused the force vector to be more truly perpendicular to the piece, meaning the pull would not tend to pull it out, etc. etc. I have never used it either. I've used my pickets, but never have had to catch a fall on them, so of course I still don't know what's better. I still carry the fluke sometimes, and I figure I'll use it eventually. It has a nice long cable held in place with copper grommets, so the angle of the cable is fixed in the correct position. I think in very soft snow it would probably be superior, but I haven't yet climbed in snow that was both extremely mushy and steep enough to warrant a belay (except on a solo on Mt. Deception's E. face, a series of little mushy snowfields of 45 to 55 degrees, surrounded by loose rock; the pick would glide through the snow like butter when I tested it; probably a good thing I backed off and went up another way).

[obsydian]

I've played around with flukes in practice, they just don't seem to make sound enough placements in the cascades given other alternatives. Not sure where flukes would really work, but I'll do without them around here.

[catbirdseat]

I've played around with flukes in spring snow. We once put six men on a rope pulling for all they were worth, to see if we could get a fluke to pull out. It held. We felt it unwise to put more people on the rope. The point was made.