forrest_m

john - climbed most of the south face a few years ago before bailing off in a thunder/hail storm. lost 4 hexes in that little adventure... we hiked in via the canadian side (ashnola river road), which was very scenic. we left the car around noon, camped somewhere in the woods, and were at the upper lake just below the pass by noon the second day. it was mostly pretty mellow bushwacking, but there are several miles of lodgepole pine blowdown that make you feel like you're doing hurdle practice with the track and field team. we avoided this on the way out by staying on the high ridge to the north of the valley (sorry, i've forgotten all the names of rivers and valleys by now), several miles of alpine meadows and among the most beautiful hikes i've ever done, before finally dropping down the nose of the ridge to regain the trail back to the car. i know people who have done the 18 mile trail approach in a single day, so it sounds like it's all about the same amount of time, but the off-trail approach is much more interesting - and empty. you'll have to share the trails with every horse-packer in eastern washington. the s. face itself is very confusing, it's very hard to identify the features from the beckey guide, but it also seems like most of it is about the same grade - follow your nose and it's hard to end up on terrain harder than 5.8. The rock is pretty good, but has a lot of crumbly surface (a la the bad parts of washington pass) and there are a lot of exfoliated ledges (i.e. where there's a good stance there often aren't many good cracks) but the friction is great and there didn't seem to be much loose rock. The descent is casual and beautiful, traipsing down steep alpine meadows (We scrambled up the back side the next morning to the summit in between rain squalls) hope you have a good trip

ummmm... and how is it my fault that you started typing before reading? reminds me of something in our office... when a contractor sends in a request for information about something that is obviously covered in detail in the specifications or drawings, we return it rubber stamped to say "Failure to Read Documents" ;-)

On Sat. 6/16, we climbed the south face of prussik, via snow creek, total car to car time was a hair under 14 hours. We were (barely) able to get to the route and descend without touching any snow. The rock is so damn good! Super solid with chickenheads everywhere. We linked the first two pitches to the larch patch per the Nelson guide, then climbed several variation pitches. Going straight up instead of trending right led to a beautiful slab with a shallow corner on the left. Slightly scary, but really neat moves led up after 30 feet to easier ground, then 15 feet of downclimbing right led to the top of the standard 3rd pitch. Instead of heading up the "open corner" we climbed a steep finger crack that starts in a left facing corner, leads into a slab, then pulls a small roof with insecure off-fingers jams. Very, very cool moves on flawless rock with great pro. Easier climbing led back right into the regular route, and we belayed again just above the giant chockstone. From here, 80 feet of moderate climbing leads up, then instead of going right into the notorious offwidth, we went left, around the corner and into a flawless handcrack which leads up to a difficult and intimidating mantle, before heading back right to the ledge 1/3 of the way up the final pitch. 100 more feet of spectacular 5.9 climbing lets you pull up directly onto the flat summit. All the "variation" pitches had signs of passage, some gardening, fixed pins, etc. but it was fun/scary 'cause we didn't know exactly what we were in for on any given pitch. We just climbed what looked like the best climbing. In the end, all three were in the mid to low 5.10 range, yielding a continuously challenging route on great rock that avoids the less pleasant pitches of the regular south face route. Though it was a perfect day in June, the only people we saw all day were two climbers on the west ridge and a few campers down at snow lake.

rodchester - not to be a smartass, but how well did you do on the reading comprehension part of the SAT? what i said was in alpine style you don't move over the same terrain IN THE SAME DIRECTION. thus, rapping, glissading or crawling down the climbing route can be alpine style, since generally descending and climbing are moving in opposite directions. my intention was to emphasize the continuous nature of movement in alpine style as opposed to the back-and-forth that characterizes expedition style. scottp, think you are correct that "light and fast" generally is an attribute of alpine climbing, but that is a result of the continuous movement, not the other way around. I don't think you can define alpine style by the contents of someone's backpack, i.e. a bivy sack is alpine style but a tent is not, . i think you need to make a distinction between people who are simply climbing and people who are pushing their limits (or the limits of the possible). both may be climbing alpine style, it is a very broad category. it is hard to climb in expedition style, it is a lot of work and is very time consuming. almost everything else is alpine style. there are many other shades of "style" and "commitment" and we can split hairs about whether using the huts at muir counts or not, but i think the only essential element is the no-back-and-forth. [This message has been edited by forrest_m (edited 06-12-2001).]

how's this for a definition of "alpine style", it seems to incorporate all the different things that I've always thought were included in the term: one is climbing "alpine style" when in a round trip from your start point (car, telepherique, major basecamp (i.e. where the porters left your gear or where your skiplane landed) you never cover the same terrain more than once while *moving in the same direction.* by my definition, alpine style is about movement, not gear. pitons and bolts aren't disallowed, carrying a lot of either is just usually not practical. you can plan to spend the night. you can leave gear stashed if you know you'll be coming back that way. many famous "alpine style" climbs involve dropping the packs where the climbing route and the descent route converge, and dashing for the summit unencumbered. there's no point in fixing ropes when climbing alpine style, because you will never be climbing the same pitch twice. "single push" climbing a la twight is a sub-set of alpine style. the term "alpine style" originated as a way to differentiate between attempting big peaks in "expedition style" and the approaching them in the same way people might climb at home in the alps, thus weekend climbs in smaller mountains are almost by definition "alpine style". some examples: you leave the cascade pass trailhead to climb johanasberg, beginning your bushwhack straight from the parking lot. after climbing the route, you bivy on the summit, then descend, eventually ending up on the cascade pass trail which takes you back to your car. verdict: alpine style since you never covered the same ground twice. you leave your car at the boston basin trailhead, and hike up to the basin. after spending the night, you leave your tent and sleeping bag, climb the west ridge of forbidden peak, descending the east ledges descent. about halfway back to your camp, you are covering ground that you have covered before, but are moving in the opposite direction. you pick up your gear and head down towards a beer in marblemount. verdict: alpine style because you never covered the same ground while moving in the same direction. consider the rainier expedition style example given earlier. verdict: not alpine style because you climb the muir snowfields and the cleaver in the same direction more than once. $.02

best all around point and shoot type: Yashica T4, without a doubt. Zeiss lens is so sharp photo pros i know refuse to believe they were taken with a point and shoot. Rubber gaskets at all openings keep it water resistant, it not waterproof. vented lens cap, so the lens doesn't get fogged up nearly as much. No zoom lens, but that makes it really light, and very rugged, plus it has a cool extra viewfinder on the top so you can hold it at arms length and still aim. I got mine, with a lowepro case, battery and 2 year extended warranty for $240 at glaziers. As for carrying the SLR, try this: i put two of those mini biners on the case and did away with the shoulder strap. Climbing, I can clip it to the gear loops on my harness (in the back or on either side), clip it to the waist belt of my pack for the approach, even clip them to the shoulder straps for the chest-mounted effect. Very versatile. I always carry a big ziplock in the top of the case. If the weather starts to really suck, I probably won't be taking pictures anyway, so I stick the camera in the bag. Putting the camera in the bag is also a good idea when you change climates, i.e. go into the hut or a warm tent/car/whatever to keep condensation from forming. (you can take it out again when the camera has warmed up to the ambient temp.)

Started from White River Saturday morning in a light drizzle. Whiteout conditions in Glacier Meadow, navigated by altimeter across the Carbon, full on blizzard by the time we got to the 10,200' bivy below the route. We would have stopped and pitched the tent earlier, but for the last hour and a half, there's really no place to do it. Didn't sleep much as we had to get up every 2 hours and shovel out the tent. Forecast had called for showers sat. with better weather on sunday, which pretty much held, except that saturday was constant snow and wind, especially during the night. Around 6 am, the clouds suddenly evaporated. What an impressive place to be! I had no idea the traverse the evening before had been so exposed... We scoped the route, but decided that 12-18" of fresh wind-packed powder on top of solid ice was a little too hazardous for our taste. In addition, though the sky was clear, huge plumes up high indicated high winds on the summit. We packed up and began retracing our route. The first hundred yards back along the ridge was gripping, a foot and a half of unstable powder snow over ice that was about 1/3 rock. The night before, it had seemed casual, but now you couldn't see where to swing and the soft snow made it hard to get your points into the ice. Every few steps, our footprints would collapse, sending a mini-avalanche tumbling 2000 feet down to the Carbon Glacier. If we needed any confirmation that we'd done the right thing in not getting on the route, this was it. The rest of the descent was fairly casual, and it was nice to be in the sun for a change. We made it off the steeper slopes before the intense sun started setting off avalanches. We poked through a buch of crevasses hidden by the new snow, but never more than waist deep. We were back at the car by 3:30. A day or two of decent weather should return the route to good shape. We gambled on the weather and didn't hit it - welcome to climbing in the Cascades, right?. It looks to be in great shape but *very* technical. After this latest snow sloughs off, it should be solid grey ice from the notch at 10,200 all the way to where the angle kicks back (around 13K, above the rock band).

gee, I always thought it was I am bone

Erik - hell, i would never say that flying in is in itself bad, I've done it and I'd do it again in a heartbeat. I'm still glad that some areas they are off limits, and obviously, approaching the waddington group by kayaking from vancouver island and hiking from the beach wins more style points than using White Saddle Air. (I know someone who did this - ouch!) My point was just that classic routes attain their classic status for more than just the climb itself. Stashing a bike at the descent and riding back to your car is part of the "Classic Slesse Experience," hallowed by tradition, sacred to anyone who appreciates the mountai... oh, well anyway, it's a way for those of us who've done it the old fashioned way to feel superior. ;-) Seriously, I do believe that doing any climb with less rather than more equipment/support/etc. is almost always better style, and in my experience yields a more powerful experience, but until I start walking to the mountains from home, I'm not going to get self-righteous about it...

The most important aspect to getting your stove and fuel onto an airplane is to be prepared to LIE WITH A STRAIGHT FACE. The above advice is good about washing the bottles, etc, also store your pumps in seperate bags in different parts of your gear. Leave caps off of your bottles and make sure that you really have gone to great lengths to eliminate any and all gas residue. (You can claim that they're drinking bottles) But in the end, it all comes down to this: when they ask you if you have any stoves, shake your head, look sincere, and say no. Otherwise your stuff can get confiscated - it's not just continental, I believe that it's official FAA policy that the stuff is not allowed. (Look at that card with all the pictures of stuff you're not allowed to have and camping stoves are prominant). It's a one size fits all policy to relieve the desk agents of the need to exercise any personal judgement. It would be dangerous to have some gas can rupture in an unpressurized airplane and spray fuel all over the place, so they make a simple rule that any idiot can follow, even if it doesn't make any sense in the specific instance of a well cleaned stove and empty bottles.

Amen! Not only is it a waste of $700 (use the money to hire a personal trainer and get into good enough shape to do the route) but I hereby declare that using a chopper to do the NE Butress of Slesse is CHEATING. Heh, heh, heh...

A few years ago we were climbing at Donner Summit, near Lake Tahoe after working a couple of long days at the Outdoor Retailer show in Reno. After two days, I was feeling pretty good and decided to try a harder gear route, so I psyched myself up and led this beautiful finger crack that was absolutely at my limit to do it and place gear. Several times, I debated hanging, then decided to go for it - what the heck, that's what the rope's for, right? Feet sketchin, arms shakin, in full elvis mode I got to the top, where there was a two bolt anchor, put draws on, clipped the rope in and was actually leaning back for a victorious ride to the ground, when I looked down and saw that I'd done the classic "tie half your figure 8, pass it through your harness and then don't finish your knot". I frantically grabbed the chains and managed to clip a long draw into the anchor and my belay loop and finished tying in. I guess it's a good thing the route was *at* my limit and not *just beyond* it. Put a serious damper on my excitement about flashing my hardest gear route. Now I'm totally paranoid - I'm notorious among my friends for checking knots and buckles multiple times over the course of the day.

ok, if i get 2/3s of the question is that enough for victory? anderl stabbed a porter who was stealing supplies (he's so driven that he won't stand for anything that stands in his way) on some expedition, but i can't remember where. hemlock: "we're going to make it" anderl: "I don't think so... but we shall continue with style." he gets all the best lines in the movie.

as i recall she invites Hemlock to share a nightcap... he says something like "he tries to keep you from sleeping with younger men by staying young himself," then comments "guess it didn't work" and she stalks off in a huff on a side topic, this euphemism (come in for a nightcap) was so common (threes company, etc.) that until my mid teens, I thought the word simply meant sex, not just a cozy drink that might lead to sex. [This message has been edited by forrest_m (edited 05-24-2001).]

I had a conversation about this a week or so ago with a buddy who has used the Gri-gri a lot for soloing - and I will note that I have not tried this myself, only other devices and clove hitches - but I had read that there was a problem with upside down falls causing the Gri-Gri not to lock up, and that there was some crazy modification people make to the device to fix this. He replied that he was too nervous to drill and file his Gri-gri, but his testing had shown that the upside down thing was only really a problem if you clip into a chest harness that holds the gri-gri's orientation-to-your-body constant. (A surprise to me, 'cause I always thought you used soloing devices *only* with a chest harness). He clipped the gri-gri into his waist just like a regular belay, so in a fall, it always orients itself correctly, even though the fall might be a little longer. He also noted that with all the crap on your harness etc, that it was possible that the gri-gri could be constrained and not function right - so backing up with a clove hitch is recommended. Like I said, I haven't tried this but I thought it was interesting information. YMMV. oops, just reread the original post refers to toproping, my comment refers to solo-aid leading, upside down falls probably aren't much of a concern in a TR situation. But I'll leave it up 'cause it seems like interesting info... [This message has been edited by forrest_m (edited 05-23-2001).]

Dude, you answered your own simple question, I was just pointing it out. Obviously you already know that the route is crowded. It's in 50 classic climbs, it's in Nelson's book, it's one of the most aesthetic and desirable routes of its kind in the country... so duh, any weekend that conditions are good, it's going to be a goat rodeo with all the delays and human-induced rockfall that implies. For your easily-offended-information, I was serious, go midweek, work a weekend, take some vacation days, whatever it takes. It you want solitude and good conditions both, that's the only solution. What kind of hand-holding answer were you expecting? "I have secret information that June 9 and 10 there will be no other parties on the route?"

"I AM HOPING TO AVOID THE WEEKEND MASSES...IF THAT IS EVEN POSSIBLE. ANY THOUGHTS?" Try going midweek...

Of what is this not true? Don't you feel robbed when a local band that you used to see for a buck at a bar signs a big contract and now everybody knows about them? When the ocean beach that your family used to have all to yourselves becomes a goat rodeo? Try this game: insert virtually any worthwhile activity in the place of "mountaineering" in donna's phrase: IRONICALLY, THE VERY BUSINESSES THAT PROFIT FROM __(insert activity)___ DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY PARTICIPATE IN DECREASING THE QUALITY OF THE ___(insert activity)___EXPERIENCE

isn't it aconcagua? btw, my favorite quote from the book, there is a description of an airplane taking off "in a magnificent conversion of petroleum into pollution" that has always stuck in my mind. [This message has been edited by forrest_m (edited 05-22-2001).]

PeteA - We faced exactly the same dilemma last year, planned to ski the Ptarmigan Traverse over Mem. Day weekend, then thought better of it because of the weather. The big problem is navigation - most of the PT is above treeline and skiing in a white out isn't much fun. So we went further east and skied the Douglas Glacier on Mt. Logan. (three days round trip, see trip report http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000006.html) This makes a good backup plan, because you can get right to the start of the PT, then change your mind and just continue east another 30 miles on Hwy. 20. In addition to slightly better weather, this trip has the advantage that much of the navigation is at or below treeline, so is a lot more tolerable in bad weather, while still giving you the option of attempting some very big (Logan is over 9K) peaks. For a longer tour, you could repeat the first part of this trip, then continue on over Fischer Pass and ski the (south ridge?) of Black Peak, return to Hwy. 20 and hitch a ride back to the Easy Pass trailhead. Very unlikely that you will see another person. Hope you have fun.

Dunno if they're "specialist piece", more depends on where you climb. I have a couple of small offset aliens and I use them a lot. Plugging them into pin scars, which you do a lot at old-school granite areas (index, squamish, etc.) you can often get a half size bigger than if you have an even sized cam, ie. the blue-green alien instead of the blue tcu. One or two in the smaller sizes, anyway, is pretty useful. I've also found that they often can be placed well even if a non-offset cam would also work, so they make a good alternative to doubles in certain sizes.(They're also considered more or less essential for a modern aid rack.) $.02 I do think any offset piece bigger than the yellow tcu would probably not be that useful. [This message has been edited by forrest_m (edited 05-16-2001).]

speaking of index musical route names, i've always wanted some explanation of "ted nugent in a basket". anyone have any ideas? as long as we're on index trivia, anyone know who Walter B. is and why we're apologizing to him?

We did the n. face of buckner last october, see trip report posted at http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000004.html Due to the scary snow blocks W mentions, we opted to *descend* down into lower H. Basin and hike the trail back up to cascade pass. (an extra 8 miles) We were later convinced by others that it would have been much less work and not really that bad to have followed the typical climber's path back up to sahale arm. See the TR for more details.

oh come on dbb, i cannot believe that you are seriously recommending vantage as a destination for an out of state road trip, especially when world-class areas like squamish and smith are in the conversation. the place is a pile and is only as popular as it is because the weather is so often crap on the west side of the mountains, and because the combination of short routes and soft grades make people feel good about themselves. the only destination-worthy cragging area in the state is index, and but if you lead 5.8 trad, you'ld only have about one day's worth of climbing. leavenworth is a nice place to stop off for a few days (and I'm not knocking it as a great weekend destination from seattle), but i can't imagine planning a long trip around climbing there. It's nice, but mostly not spectacular, if you know what i mean. Tieton (royal columns) is cool, but like index, mostly at a higher grade than you're talking about. Pe-trashcan Pinnicles? You're joking, right? for a good combination of moderate yet spectacular trad routes and sport routes at all grades, i'd recommend squamish or city of rocks. much nicer camping at the city (even though you need reservations, check the nat. park website), long multi-pitch moderates at squamish. btw, i'm not ragging on my home state, it's just that the great part about climbing here is the mountains. when we want to crag for a solid for a week or more, we usually go out of state!

this came up on a thread a while back called "southern pickets" (yeah, I know, fury isn't in the south pickets...) anyway, scroll down 6 or 7 posts and you'll see it. http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000046.html