MrGecko

Freak Freely, 5.10b has a direct start that is a bit of a boulder problem but can be protected from the ground with a good nut to keep your arse out of the dirt. It raises the grade a notch or so but worth a go.

That topo shows an approximate position of the bolt and route. I've lead it and it flows nicely to protect the crimps right of the bolt. Taller folks can go left of the bolt more easily and if you really want to skip the crux you can step far left and go up the corner. Let's climb it next time you are out

STEP & FETCH IT, previously a top rope line, is now open for leading. A couple of bolts were added (with the permission of the FA) including one for the crux start. Bring a bunch of 0.5" microcams as they work well for pro on this route. More info: STEP & FETCH IT

A new route went in The Landing area called Thin Line 5.10c It has four bolts and some thin gear and currently ends at the Dark Horse Anchors. It may get a direct finish sometime in the future. The Oracle 5.10c has had two bolts added.

Bitterroot Plunked a new route in on the Gold Wall yesterday between Kung Fu and Whine & Cheese. It follows a crack line up the wall and finishes at the Kung Fu anchors. It needs a bit more cleaning which I will get to in the coming weeks and might get a bolt. BITTERROOT

I haven't read any climbing literature suggesting how routes should be graded. So I am asking since I'm sure we all have our own approach to how we set a grade. The difference to designating a grade based on an onsight vs. red point can be significant especially if the FA doesn't consider the subtleties of working on a route. Some climbers will put up a route, work and wire it and then assign it a grade. Of course once it has been rehearsed and the climber is more efficient, the route may seem easier. Does that climber decide to grade it based on their most current experience or on the experience of the first time they climbed it. Do they base it on the first time they climbed it clean or just the first ascent? Top rope or leading it? Preplaced gear or fixed quick draws? Although we would like to think that none of these things would affect the grading of a route, they do because it changes our perception and experience of the climb. If you climb a route only once and have to assign it a grade how accurate would that be? You may have missed key holds and your experience would again be different. Rap bolting also lends itself to inspection of a route vs. a ground up ascent. So let's say I rap and drill bolts and then pull my rope and climb the route. Technically I am red pointing the route since I have intimate knowledge of the line from cleaning and bolting. However, the next climber that shows up and does it from the ground up has a different experience with no inspection. Do I grade the route based on my first redpoint go or should I consider what it would have been had I not known all the key hand holds etc? Here is my understanding regarding the other two topics that were coming up in discussion. Single Hardest Move Type Routes - yes routes are often graded for the single hardest move. If you have a pitch with 5.5 climbing and it has a short step with some 5.9 jamming it will be given a 5.9 grade typically. Grading for the pitch is not an averaging of all the moves/terrain and the YDS 5.number system doesn't accommodate explaining a one move wonder pitch any better than it would describe a bunch of 5.9 terrain with a short section of 5.5 climbing. That is what route descriptions capture and is how one could describe it more clearly. A topo also helps by showing the one 5.9 jamming section. Sustained Routes - I have heard climbers say "that 5.10 line doesn't have a move harder than 5.9 but it's sustained 5.9". I get it, 5.10 lines that have stances and rests or big holds are easier than 5.10 lines that have the same sustained move over and over. Again, the YDS isn't designed to convey this information. Technically speaking if each move is 5.9 then the route should be graded 5.9 because the YDS isn't based on an averaging of move difficulty over a distance, it's just a rating of movement difficulty. The length of the 5.9 climbing shouldn't affect the assigned route/pitch grade because if it did then we better consider how to grade the route/pitch if we use a 30m, 50m, 60m or 70m rope. Again, use the description to describe the line as sustained. That said, I have experienced climbs getting bumped up and rated for their sustained nature and as G-Spotter stated some routes got a grade "for the pump". I should add that at the higher levels of sport climbing routes are getting graded higher because of longer and more sustained moves. A line of 5.12 crimpy moves for 50' definitely gets bumped to 5.13 so in practice do we have a grading system that works differently in the lower grades vs. the upper grades? Grading is a subjective thing and hence the challenge with quantifying it.

The difference to designating a grade based on an onsight vs. red point can be significant especially if the FA doesn't consider the subtleties of working on a route. Some climbers will put up a route, work and wire it and then assign it a grade. Of course once it has been rehearsed and the climber is more efficient, the route may seem easier. Does that climber decide to grade it based on their most current experience or on the experience of the first time they climbed it. Do they base it on the first time they climbed it clean or just the first ascent? Top rope or leading it? Preplaced gear or fixed quick draws? Although we would like to think that none of these things would affect the grading of a route, they do. If you climb a route only once and have to assign it a grade how accurate would that be? You may have missed key holds and your experience would again be different. Rap bolting also lends itself to pre-inspection of a route vs. a ground up ascent. So I rap and drill bolts and then pull my rope and climb the route. Technically I am red pointing it since I have intimate knowledge of the line. However, the next climber that shows up and does it from the ground up has a different experience with no inspection. Do I grade the route based on my first redpoint go or should I consider what it would have been had I not known all the key hand holds etc? Grading is a subjective thing and hence the challenge with quantifying it. I'm jumping this thread into another if you want to chime in ... CLIMBING GRADE THREAD

As an extension to the 2014 route updates here is what's up: A) Variety 5.8 - new top anchors were added so the route can be rappelled. B) Whine and Cheese 5.10d - this route was cleaned up and retro bolted to eliminate decking on the 1st ledge. A direct variation was added which offers more climbing in the grade by ascending directly up the overhang/bulge mid route. The direct variation doesn't require gear and is completely bolt protected. C) Meth Rage 5.7 - top anchors were replaced with 1/2" SS D) Tofutie Cutie 5.11a - a new route added between Meth Rage and Mrs. Norris. Bolts and 1 optional pc of gear ~1" after the third bolt. E) Mrs. Norris 5.11c - this route was retro bolted, extended and had the old pins removed. It no longer requires gear and now climbs all the way to the Meth Rage anchors. F) The Crumbling 5.12a - the scary bolts were pulled and replaced and this route also was extended to the Meth Rage anchors. The prior update thread: 2014 Ozone Updates Note that updates to routes are also posted on Mt Project

Do you think routes are generally graded for on sight or red pointing? Are sport and gear routes graded differently in this respect? Since most sport lines are rap bolted it would be hard to say that the route setter "on sighted" the route so it would be a red point grade and if so does a route setter bump it up a point or so for an on sight grade? Thoughts?

mksportn - Kenny and I were with you on one of your sends but you had mentioned to us you had been on it before. That was the day we added the bolt up top.

If you have climbed Rolling Thunder at Ozone what would you grade the route for an "On Sight" lead ascent? I'm curious as I haven't personally met anyone who has on sighted it; I'm sure they are out there.

For identification markings on the bolt head, these HCA/Hilti coil anchor lag bolts have the traditional three lines indicating a Grade 5 bolt as well as the letters CY & C stamped on them. If you see this then they are likely one of these HCA bolts.

The old coil bolt looks like a lag bolt, a grade 5 zinc plated lag bolt. If it had a coil originally it's obviously not working now. The new replacement also looks like a zinc plated mild steel bolt. The chains are zinc and the color matches. Give it 10 years and you won't trust it because of rust. Buck, the image you are looking at is both the original bolts and the original MadRock SS hangers not the replacements. Replacements look like this:

It sounds like you are bolting with these Hanman? What route was that and where? Can you provide more information on your test setup, the rock type and age of these anchors etc. We didn't find any coils in the holes and after 1/2 turn these slipped out by hand. Hilti recommends them for non permanent installations and indoor conditions. -Fastening braces to support tilt-up and formwork - Non-specified, temporary fastenings Please do not bolt with non stainless steel equipment and follow the current ASCA practices and recommendations. Just because you did not find the coil in the hole does not mean they were not in there. I am an eye witness to those bolts being placed. They had a coil sleeve..... Kev, sounds like you were there when Josh put those in and it looks like that coil is integral to the function of the bolt, what do you think?

It sounds like you are bolting with these Hanman? What route was that and where? Can you provide more information on your test setup, the rock type and age of these anchors etc. We didn't find any coils in the holes and after 1/2 turn these slipped out by hand. Hilti recommends them for non permanent installations and indoor conditions. -Fastening braces to support tilt-up and formwork - Non-specified, temporary fastenings Please do not bolt with non stainless steel equipment and follow the current ASCA practices and recommendations.

A general Portland vicinity rebolting effort is under way and during a session at Ozone these anchors were discovered on the route called The Crumbling as well as used for top anchors on the route Meth Rage. These are lag bolts and were driven into a drilled hole as is. This is why education regarding bolting is important. Anyone can basically buy a drill and start assembling a sport route with little to no instruction. Others think they can save a few dollars here and there but in the end its your neck that is hung on the line or maybe placed in a cast if not worse. Support your local rebolting efforts with the ASCA but donating. A month's gym membership fee would be a good donation amount. Donate here: http://mazamas.org/about-us/donate-to-the-mazamas/ Be safe out there!

A general Portland vicinity rebolting effort is under way and during a session at Ozone these anchors were discovered on the route called The Crumbling as well as used for top anchors on the route Meth Rage. These are lag bolts and from what we can tell were driven into a drilled hole as is. This is why education regarding bolting is important. Anyone can basically buy a drill and start assembling a sport route with little to no instruction. Others think they can save a few dollars here and there but in the end its your neck that is hung on the line or maybe placed in a cast if not worse. Support your local rebolting efforts with the ASCA but donating. A month's gym membership fee would be a good donation amount. Be safe out there!

What: BIG WALL TIPS & TRICKS with Mark Hudon When: Thursday March 26th, 2015 5:30pm Where: ClubSport Ascent Climbing Center, 18120 SW Lower Boones Ferry Rd, Tigard, OR 97224 More information & signup: http://mazamas.org/education-classes/clinics-and-special-presentations/

I've done Hair Extensions using the arete on the right but took the off width variation to butt hole crack. Its full on M5 up to there and then eases into where the ice starts up. It can be dubious with Spectres and stubbies. But I have to agree with your logical tangible comment and definitely sagacious dude in both the first and second dimensions. Viva la China

What is the ice climbing like at Slick? Are the conditions favorable all year long?

NOV 12, 2014 I'm officially kicking it off with this set of photos from the recent polar vortex. This should start building more over the next two days. Hamilton Mt from Hwy 14 Upper Hamilton Mt Table Mt

I definitely agree that parties should discuss it before hand as there may be financial constraints on one or both parties and from evidence in this thread, fundamental differences in opinion. However, if money is not a question and both have adequate resources I feel that personal gear losses should be at the expense of the individual who was in control of it at the time. Stuck gear and ropes aside - as its impossible to say someone's skill or lack thereof resulted in a pulled rope getting stuck or that a leader placed gear poorly vs. the skill of the 2nd is lacking. I look at it this way, if I neglect to follow simply securing someones gear on a ledge when it is a simple thing to do and it results in a loss, then I would expect to compensate them. Same goes if I was to borrow a friend's cell phone or SLR camera for a trip. If I go on a trip and take their camera and subsequently lose or damage it should they pay 1/2 or get zero reimbursement? They had no control over the item when they weren't even present. Accidents happen but neglect to follow procedure has consequences and subsequent personal responsibility.

FYI Frenches Dome over near Mt Hood just had a major rebolting effort. Tons of crap came off and new goods installed. Here is a repost from the rebolting team leader Micah Klesick: Went out to French's Dome yesterday and replaced bolts. Thanks so much to Matt and Katy Hoechlin, Scott Robertson (Head of Nike's Climbing Program), Rob Holzman and Jess Holzman, Sam Horack, and Erik Matthew Jenson. They all came out and together we replaced about 25 bolts, effectively finishing the re-bolting of French's Dome for the next few years at least. Several bolts pulled out by hand, and many more snapped with only a 1/4 turn of the frozen washer. Kind of scary. Here is a list of what we replaced: Replaced starting bolt to Tin Tangle/OZ Replaced 5 out of 8 bolts on Alpha and the anchor. Added Rap Rings Replaced 7 bolts on Static Cling, and removed 5 extra bolts and an old piton Replaced two bolts on Giant's Staircase, and removed an extra bolt, and fixed a badly positioned hanger. Replaced two bolts on Yellow Brick Road (left the old bolts for history's sake) Replaced Rap anchor on the front - added rap rings Replaced anchor to Dirty Deeds (AKA Silverstreak) - removed three old anchor bolts and added rap rings Replaced anchor to Crankenstien - removed three old anchor bolts - added rap rings Replaced anchor to Pump-o-Rama - removed two newer anchor bolts (but very poorly done and unsafe) - Added rap rings. NOW READ THIS IF YOU HAVEN'T ALREADY: http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1130235/Aging_Bolts_and_Other_Scary_Ta#Post1130235

But seriously... READ IT! http://www.climbing.com/climber/built-to-last/

I'm looking for your opinion on how climbers typically handle this situation. Situation A - you are climbing a big wall and your partner unpacks things from the haulbag. They set things down on a ledge and neglect to clip them in or secure them. One of your items, let's say a sleeping bag or stuff sack full of clothing, falls off the ledge. Who is responsible for replacing the said items? Is the cost shared in this case? Situation B - you are climbing with a partner and a piece of gear, lets say a cam, gets stuck and they can't remove it. There isn't much time to deal with it or rap back down and see if you can get it out. Who is responsible for replacing the item? Is the cost shared in this case?