Coldfinger

Look, one big lesson here has to be the importance of HOW one communicates. Sol, many of us were simply communicating our viewpoints, with absolutely no intent to make a personal attack. You took a few swipes at folks, but since you were vague and a little cute about "who" that was, I have to say your antagonism probably overshadowed your message. It is hard, but you gotta keep your cool. I do understand what being a "local" means but keep in mind the LMA does not represent every local, that the climbing is probably more heavily used (in terms of "user days") by non-locals, that we ALL own it, and what happens there in Icicle DOES set a precedent for what could or will happen in my "locals" world. Put another way, you put yourself out there and yes not everybody is going to approve. It's unpleasant but that is what happens. We all don't agree. Adam, I was particularly non-plussed by your caption to the photo you posted of a food cache taped to a tree, namely that you used "the climbers" as the subject of your sentence. For one thing I AM a climber and would use an appropriate pronoun. For another posting that pic publicly with that somewhat condescending and non-inclusive tone kinda makes you look like an arrogant you-know-what. Coupled with the cairn kicking pic, you kinda set a heavy duty tone. Not a great start. Do keep in mind that many of the posters here have been doing trail work, picking up trash, cleaning toilets, installing anchors and cleaning new routes for a VERY long time, probably some longer than you been around this earth. And yes some of us have even been PAID to do it! So... smile chances are you will be getting a TON of help with your projects. What's my point here? I dunno, just hope we can all tie in and have a beer sometime and that it will all be good. Not too long ago I was on one of those big group trips and it turns out a friend's boyfriend and I had had a big dustup here on CC.com. My friends didn't believe me when I told them he would definitely remember, so the look on his face when he blurted out "You're Coldfinger!!!" was priceless. Turns out we had a great trip, really enjoyed getting to know the guy, and ironically he is now in Leavenworth.

One point I usually bring up when it comes to discussing "Wilderness" here in Wyoming is this: it's probably a far better thing to have folks enjoying the wilderness, even if their activities "degrade" it to some degree, than not because "Wilderness" lands are a mere act of Congress, and may be modified or repealed. There are quite a few folks who see the forest here in Wyoming for the drilling fields.... Jobs, jobs, the economy, jobs!!! The environment? Meh. Personally, my view of the public on public lands is that they own it, that's the bottom line. They will decide how to use it, and be glad they care enough about it to tread lightly(ish) and love it enough to keep coming back. So Welcome fellas, and do try to keep the larger picture foremost in your minds, and not the daily aggravations.

Well, I know how things are around here well enough to know what kinda reception they'd get! And its the usual suspects!

Just wondering, and it hasn't come up, so I'll ask it again: What if anything do the two areas have for Climbing Management Plans? What exactly are they doing with fixed anchors? Cleaning all the tat and old fixed gear or just the junk? Their Facebook page states "Removed 22 lbs of old slings, webbing, and gear from Ingalls Peak" and if its just the junk, can't see how that's a bad thing. It's just that in 99% of cases, until the present it has been up to climbers to install and maintain anchors (removing tat), so this is a new thing. And what series exactly are our two new friends? They sure don't look like LE types, who must by their job descriptions carry a sidearm and LE gear, but it seems they can write citations. Seems like there is a fair amount of confusion, glad those involved directly are posting to clear things up.

I was kinda hoping maybe they could set up a "self service" kiosk where I can scan my climbing gym membership card--to ensure I have taken the requisite Health, Safety & Environmental training modules given the sectors visited and activities selected (and if not purchase those materials and/or training at REI and/or the gym)--and then use my Visa for the entrance fee. But seriously folks, I say we see what happens. And it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to get the USFS and NPS to look at putting toilets IN some wilderness areas, after all a well built trail is very much a structure!

Edelrid 9.8mm, non-dry, good and good and cheap, also like whiskey.....

Thanks for the posts, but it wasn't clear from the bulleted list of concerns what the USFS' position on fixed anchor cataloging and replacement was or what USFS positions were vis a vis what was discussed. Clearly, the fellows have been removing quite a few fixed rap and belay slings, but whether this is a reflection of a safety concern OR a new interpretation of the Wilderness Act is not at all clear. Given the emphasis on removal of so called illegal cairns and climber trails while on these patrols, it would seem resource concerns were at the very least a SIGNIFICANT factor in the Rangers' hands-on management of climbing anchors. As it is a significant development it has the potential, as precedent, to affect many other USFS Wilderness climbing areas, like those close to my home. Hence my interest. There are those of us who love liking and friending on Facebook and leave it at that (hurray win-win!), and then there are those of us who have been climbing a long time and active in organizations like the AAC or who are professionals who want to know the actual details, which were few to start and thankfully coming out. Kinda think discussions like this are positive, very positive, even if the tone can be somewhat negative. Believe me, I am 100% sure the Rangers themselves are used to this kind of thing--it comes with the territory!

A point that is VERY interesting to me is that these two USFS rangers were active in removing all sorts of tat from rap and belay anchors--think it was 14 lbs. from one peak alone. Interesting to see the pile of brightly colored slings they harvested so prominently displayed of the aforementioned Facebook page. Also interesting to see these climbing rangers will be involved in some way in cataloging fixed anchors and replacing unsafe ones, according to Sol. I might be a bit behind the times but that does seem to be a BIG change! Think this is quite informative, but does anybody know if there is a Climbing Management Plan in place that these two are implementing/enforcing OR has there been any kind of formal notice rule making going on? Kinda seems like some pretty sweeping changes and new policies and I don't live in Leavenworth so I wouldn't necessarily know about the immediate past. Would like to hear more here from those that do.

Thanks! Your post makes it crystal clear what is up, rather than some ambiguous thing like 'hey we're rangers and we're on facebook!'

No... I'd like to see Congress and the USFS spend the $$ to install and maintain the infrastructure needed (i.e. good trails and toilets) instead of running around and charging user fees (which do mainly pay for more traditional Bago type sites) or writing citations. Here in Wyo., there is quite a backlog of trail work and user impacts that can only be addressed or remediated by actual WORK and not "planning" or "education." Ask a few seasoned USFS or NPS types and you'd be surprised what you will hear. The backcountry is not getting the funding it needs.

When folks start talking about "win-win" scenarios you can usually interpret that to mean some nice over-educated consultant has decided to fix a problem that doesn't exist all the while being handsomely compensated. You can bet there is going to be an uptick in permit checking, nevermind food storage (and camping x distance from water and trails) warnings and citations. On the other hand, climbing is a victim of its own success as those who sought to make $$ from it have popularized it so well there are serious crowd problems now. It is awfully clear that many of these folks went straight from the city gym to the crags and can be kinda clueless in the woods (one of my favorite examples being tons of unnecessary cairns). Yes it's wilderness, but it's getting to where some places really need pit toilets. I'd welcome that rather than more hassles. Lets just hope these rangers don't go sneaking around in your tent looking for things like the NPS ones do (yes they DO!).

Well there is the irony of knocking cairn over with a foot..... With shovel in hand. Funny how "leave no trace" works! If we were only as strict with the air he is breathing!!!!

A quick look revealed they are apparently US Forest Service Rangers, tho whether they are also LEO's is anybody's guess.

Sorry, just remembered this: NOLS instructor!

Standing at the edge of death..... Also known as the edge of bad breath.

Spoken like veteran high altitude mountaineering would be.

Gotta say that FIT, FIT, FIT is the #1 thing for me. Have come to the conclusion that it's not the glove itself that matters per se, but what you do with it. So I am extremely unlikely to pay anything close to full retail for the ridiculously priced gloves of today. So I only buy gloves in sizes I have actually tried on. Too small and hands get cold quick, too big and it ain't easy to climb and way too easy to drop stuff (and one gets cold fingers from having to take them off all the time). Have been very very impressed with the Mountain Hardwear gloves, totally waterproof at the shell and don't get all sogged out and then frozen like the bladder types. Had good luck with a pair of waterproof overmitts (no insulation) for really cold belays. And I do not climb in the approach gloves--nice to have two pairs in nasty conditions. My approach gloves are usually waterproof/breathable but much cheaper $$ wise. Do like the gauntlet gloves for Ice, not so much for approach or skiing.

.....by 83 feet! CNN Story So does this have any effect on 8anu?

Spray is for....oh nevermind.

The time-tested, tried and true approach is the noobs should follow the lead of the guide/leader/experienced folks. Pay close attention and imitate. Make it absolutely clear that this is no democracy. Obey without hesitation, but feel free to ask many many questions LATER, when you all deprogram with the beverage of choice. Also, that the medium (rock/ice/glacier/weather) has to be treated with complete attention and respect. Beginning to climb is quite perilous, but a good dose of humility is far better than a big dose of macho/machista bs.

Thought this was important enough to warrant its own post: Keep in mind that FATIGUE is something new climbers are especially prone to and also ill-equipped to deal with. Add that to HURRYING (A PRIME contributing factor to all sorts of incidents) and those two factors are usually the causes of most accidents. You really have to keep a keen eye on new partners as the day goes on and be patient with them as they tend to slow down and lose focus dramatically as they tire. I have thirty odd years of experience so a nasty bushwack or talus slope is something I can navigate at a pretty good clip. So it can be tempting to push a new guy to keep up. Best advice is: you slow your ass down and don't rush 'em!

No actually many of the Tetons accidents have been on Teewinot and for some reason (hint: it's not a "hard" summit) the Middle Teton (Ellingwood Couloir being primo craterland), with one fellow even falling off the summit to his death last year. If you learn to boot/axe and/or hip belay with a bowline around the waist, it's pretty quick to get across short steep snow. The plan is not to fall, so not having the harness is no big deal. This is how old timers make quick and SAFE work of snow that is eating the lunches of quite a few noobs these days. (Edit: actually saved some dude's ass on Mt. Washington years ago when he froze in the middle of a chossy 4th class section, and we had him tie in quick directly to the rope with a butterfly knot, he fell shortly afterward.) Especially later in the day or season, steep snow can often be too soft to allow self arrest and the softness makes it WAY easy to slip in the first place. So the condition of the snow (angle, runout and especially firmness) is the most important consideration. What was relatively safe in the a.m. may be way sketchy when recrossed in the afternoon.

Well if it involves steep snow.... Make sure you actually have anchors and belay!!!! Especially if there is any kind of lethal terrain below the slope (bergschrunds, talus, cliffs). Every year we have had serious accidents in the Tetons b/c some folks think the best thing to do is either: 1. Self arrest if falling. Or 2. Tie everyone together and hope the "team self arrest" works. The results have been predictable. As for rock, if it's fourth class, don't take any chances. Besides being safe you are making a great example of how important it is to always be safe. Teaching noobs its OK to take short cuts also has predictable results.

ERRRR, again for the OP, anti thread drift etc. Think he was just askin' about twin/half ropes guys...... Would add Mammut Phoenix 8mm as a VERY sweet set I got to enjoy thanks to a partner. They are a bit thicker but same gm/m as the Sterling Photons if memory serves. Kinda enjoyed bopping along with the old clip that strand, clip this strand thing, seemed better than fumbling twin clips and the rapping was swoovy! BTW Happy Labor Day!

Hey guys, dude asked for half/twin ropes, BW Ice Floss are TWIN ropes only, their dry treatment is "double dry" but that ain't making them a "double rope"...... Been using Sterling cords in 7.7mm (twin) and 9.2 (single/double), 9.4 and 9.8 and like those a ton, their twin/half is the Photon at 7.8, have used the Monster cords and they are sweet too.