Coldfinger

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A plus in my experience has been they make it easier and more comfortable for one to not be looking the wearer 'in the eyes'.

Hmmm. Have seen folks doing 5.12 in sneakers so what's your point? Climbing ice with lightweight snow tools is about as much fun as soloing barefoot, even if it's 5.8!

I would add the aztarexs have metal grips which are both too slippery and thermally conductive(cold).

Jeez Gene! Dead wrong on this. For one thing the Aztar is a pure alpine tool, with a shaft made for plunging, hence the very minimal hand rest and straighter aluminum shaft. Just a guess here but it was designed for minimal weight and is probably a bit light for the good sticks. The biggest import of this aside from the swing and the grip rest is that having swung Quarks without pick weights or hammers, and that sucked, the swing might be a bit light. The matrix pick has a lot of metal in the blade and a minimal hammer, which meant I really enjoyed the balance and punch, it is ALMOST as sweet as a new model Quark with weights and no hammers. My experience with heavy adzes and hammers has been they can cause more twist than punch on impact. Having swung both the Matrix and Matrix like, I would be fine taking either up a 5. For one either tool was designed for steep ice and has a great grip rest. The narrow shaft diameter makes them both easier to grip and lighter in the shaft. That honking stonking burly pick puts the swing weight squarely on the head. My opinion is either has one of the finest pure ice swings out there. The matrix pick is very heavy duty and has a very effective first tooth, good for either deep sticks or hooking thin ice. My opinion is that many so called top end ice tools are really more aimed at mixed climbing (or hooking) with their crazy bent shafts. The Matrix shaft has a shaft that seems pretty ideal for mainly ice with a good natural swing. It also has a nice bend at the grip that makes for a more ergonomic angle for the wrist. Both Matrix tools are surprisingly light, but still drive the pick really nicely into ice due to head weight. Had Matrix Lights for a couple if years with the Horns added and got many comments on how much easier they were to swing than most tools. I found I got a lot less pumped because they stuck well (fewer swing) and had good balance and a thinner diameter, lighter shaft. Am using Quarks now and not nomics as that tool seems the best swinging pure ice tool I have ever used. But the Grivels are pretty close. So I would say stick with the matrix tools for ice, as that is what the OP seems to want to do. It really is a pretty ideal tool for stuff up to and far beyond WI4.

That's right, it's at least 100 points for a snowboard.

BD ice screw sold, thanks!

I'll add this one thing, as it seems overlooked but on p[oint to the original post AND the thread: The "locals" have clearly addressed the "problem" of painting the rock and did so WITHOUT any USFS help. So.... Not to say the Rangers aren't needed, but it is clear the climbing community CAN handle problems. Well done!

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Guess the umpapa show is better on Ritalin.

Actually it ISN'T so obvious unless method matters more than result. A good way to start a clusterf*!k is a blind belief in cooperation. Quite a few environmental groups and folks have sold their soul for "access" (aka "a seat at the table"). I would add the ideal of "development" is quite often the beginning of the end for a resource, even though the users might show up with SUP's & Bikes racked up. Still burning gas, flushing toilets and spending the big $$ on the gear and the look. Seems like greenwashing has become the new normal, so please forgive me for being a tad caustic. And while we're on the topic of sustainability and cooperation (at least as far as readability meets good sense), maybe we could ration words?

Quite believable actually, given the Russians' behavior on big faces on the big peaks. Summit at all costs. Probably had a good deal of spray paint AND spray hair product. Lets hope McCain doesn't get wind of this....... Oh and any idea on the ratings involved? Painted 5.8 would be LMFAO!

Keenwesh got a bulls eye on that! Got the new Quarks and they were crap without the weights and absolutely golden with them. As for the hammers...... It does matter WHERE the weight is (i.e. in front of or behind the shaft) and oh yeah, kinda hard to lose an eye or some teeth with the new Petzl shafts unless one uses a hammer.

Just a quick note on fit, I had the Scarpa Maverick (same Uehli Steck line as the Rebels) and they have a tighter fit than normal for Scarpa boots. Reason given is higher performance. Also, the tongue is very stretchy, so it further reduces boot volume through compression, but the fit is very good, provided your feet are not wide.

You're welcome

Kids: Have to agree with earlier post here, kids really don't get how dangerous climbing can be. Having a good deal of instruction and belay time with youngsters, I have to say that we need to treat climbing with children a little differently than with adults. Not to say they can't be as safe as adults, rather, imho, you have to go over ALL the details and do it differently than when with adults. Really important to hammer the importance of safety habits into their heads. I would add that Parents can often be a very unwelcome distraction/hazard if they don't know wtf is going on. I have come to understand that another child's mother provided the draws. Remains to be seen WHO rigged those draws. This issue will be a hard one for whoever rigged them, I hope it wasn't a child. I can remember making more than a few DIY items when I was young, so it probably is a good idea to visually check the child's harness, runners, draws and belay gear for that as part of the belay check or at least at the start of the day. As a side note, I am NOT a big fan of climbing on fixed or other people's gear as it is often hard to inspect and impossible to know its history. Inspection: Sad as it is the kid should have checked his draws/equipment. And the adults should not have been handling equipment they didn't inspect or possibly even understand. I have come to inspect each piece of pro, whether trad, ice or sport quickly as I clip and move past it. Simple habit, not much effort and allows me to focus on climbing. If you understand the function of each and every piece of the system, this really is pretty simple. Rubber Keepers: There are two basic designs for these rubber devices: 1. A rubber loop sewn into the dogbone, which make it harder to rig incorrectly, but not impossible. 2. A rubber piece, like the Petzl String, that sits over the loop, and is NOT sewn into the sling. The added benefit of this design is the keeper also protects the nylon dogbone from abrasion where it can and does rub against the rock. In addition to the way these were rigged in the accident, these are never to be used with any kind of open sling!! Petzl warns against this explicitly in its instructions and here is a good video on the topic: UKC safety video

Look, one big lesson here has to be the importance of HOW one communicates. Sol, many of us were simply communicating our viewpoints, with absolutely no intent to make a personal attack. You took a few swipes at folks, but since you were vague and a little cute about "who" that was, I have to say your antagonism probably overshadowed your message. It is hard, but you gotta keep your cool. I do understand what being a "local" means but keep in mind the LMA does not represent every local, that the climbing is probably more heavily used (in terms of "user days") by non-locals, that we ALL own it, and what happens there in Icicle DOES set a precedent for what could or will happen in my "locals" world. Put another way, you put yourself out there and yes not everybody is going to approve. It's unpleasant but that is what happens. We all don't agree. Adam, I was particularly non-plussed by your caption to the photo you posted of a food cache taped to a tree, namely that you used "the climbers" as the subject of your sentence. For one thing I AM a climber and would use an appropriate pronoun. For another posting that pic publicly with that somewhat condescending and non-inclusive tone kinda makes you look like an arrogant you-know-what. Coupled with the cairn kicking pic, you kinda set a heavy duty tone. Not a great start. Do keep in mind that many of the posters here have been doing trail work, picking up trash, cleaning toilets, installing anchors and cleaning new routes for a VERY long time, probably some longer than you been around this earth. And yes some of us have even been PAID to do it! So... smile chances are you will be getting a TON of help with your projects. What's my point here? I dunno, just hope we can all tie in and have a beer sometime and that it will all be good. Not too long ago I was on one of those big group trips and it turns out a friend's boyfriend and I had had a big dustup here on CC.com. My friends didn't believe me when I told them he would definitely remember, so the look on his face when he blurted out "You're Coldfinger!!!" was priceless. Turns out we had a great trip, really enjoyed getting to know the guy, and ironically he is now in Leavenworth.

One point I usually bring up when it comes to discussing "Wilderness" here in Wyoming is this: it's probably a far better thing to have folks enjoying the wilderness, even if their activities "degrade" it to some degree, than not because "Wilderness" lands are a mere act of Congress, and may be modified or repealed. There are quite a few folks who see the forest here in Wyoming for the drilling fields.... Jobs, jobs, the economy, jobs!!! The environment? Meh. Personally, my view of the public on public lands is that they own it, that's the bottom line. They will decide how to use it, and be glad they care enough about it to tread lightly(ish) and love it enough to keep coming back. So Welcome fellas, and do try to keep the larger picture foremost in your minds, and not the daily aggravations.

Well, I know how things are around here well enough to know what kinda reception they'd get! And its the usual suspects!

Just wondering, and it hasn't come up, so I'll ask it again: What if anything do the two areas have for Climbing Management Plans? What exactly are they doing with fixed anchors? Cleaning all the tat and old fixed gear or just the junk? Their Facebook page states "Removed 22 lbs of old slings, webbing, and gear from Ingalls Peak" and if its just the junk, can't see how that's a bad thing. It's just that in 99% of cases, until the present it has been up to climbers to install and maintain anchors (removing tat), so this is a new thing. And what series exactly are our two new friends? They sure don't look like LE types, who must by their job descriptions carry a sidearm and LE gear, but it seems they can write citations. Seems like there is a fair amount of confusion, glad those involved directly are posting to clear things up.

I was kinda hoping maybe they could set up a "self service" kiosk where I can scan my climbing gym membership card--to ensure I have taken the requisite Health, Safety & Environmental training modules given the sectors visited and activities selected (and if not purchase those materials and/or training at REI and/or the gym)--and then use my Visa for the entrance fee. But seriously folks, I say we see what happens. And it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to get the USFS and NPS to look at putting toilets IN some wilderness areas, after all a well built trail is very much a structure!

Edelrid 9.8mm, non-dry, good and good and cheap, also like whiskey.....

Thanks for the posts, but it wasn't clear from the bulleted list of concerns what the USFS' position on fixed anchor cataloging and replacement was or what USFS positions were vis a vis what was discussed. Clearly, the fellows have been removing quite a few fixed rap and belay slings, but whether this is a reflection of a safety concern OR a new interpretation of the Wilderness Act is not at all clear. Given the emphasis on removal of so called illegal cairns and climber trails while on these patrols, it would seem resource concerns were at the very least a SIGNIFICANT factor in the Rangers' hands-on management of climbing anchors. As it is a significant development it has the potential, as precedent, to affect many other USFS Wilderness climbing areas, like those close to my home. Hence my interest. There are those of us who love liking and friending on Facebook and leave it at that (hurray win-win!), and then there are those of us who have been climbing a long time and active in organizations like the AAC or who are professionals who want to know the actual details, which were few to start and thankfully coming out. Kinda think discussions like this are positive, very positive, even if the tone can be somewhat negative. Believe me, I am 100% sure the Rangers themselves are used to this kind of thing--it comes with the territory!

A point that is VERY interesting to me is that these two USFS rangers were active in removing all sorts of tat from rap and belay anchors--think it was 14 lbs. from one peak alone. Interesting to see the pile of brightly colored slings they harvested so prominently displayed of the aforementioned Facebook page. Also interesting to see these climbing rangers will be involved in some way in cataloging fixed anchors and replacing unsafe ones, according to Sol. I might be a bit behind the times but that does seem to be a BIG change! Think this is quite informative, but does anybody know if there is a Climbing Management Plan in place that these two are implementing/enforcing OR has there been any kind of formal notice rule making going on? Kinda seems like some pretty sweeping changes and new policies and I don't live in Leavenworth so I wouldn't necessarily know about the immediate past. Would like to hear more here from those that do.

Thanks! Your post makes it crystal clear what is up, rather than some ambiguous thing like 'hey we're rangers and we're on facebook!'