MtnGoat

Peter has made a great point, the links provided show the intellectual diversity possible in Israel, publicly, without being jailed or shot. In stark contrast to nearly every nation which opposes Israel, where these sentiments expressed in oppostion to those lands policies will get you jailed or shot, or both. This single point shows only one of the many huge differences between Israel and those who hate Israel, it's striking to see so many people professing progressive values refusing to support the only nation in which those values exist in the mideast. The Mullahs may still want you dead, and I am not saying anyone here *intends* to aid them, but by taking their side you serve their purposes while you live, because you share a common interest, disarming Israel and forcing Israel to be less effective at it's own defense. [ 11-12-2002, 12:24 AM: Message edited by: MtnGoat ]

"Goat, your latest tack, to describe graphic atrocities (of course only committed by those you don't like)" That's the point, isn't it? Only the Pals continue these atrocities, something consistently not addressed by supporters of the Pals here. Death by violent means is always graphic, but it's worse when it is entirely planned as the primary, totally intended end goal of those carrying it out. These are not attacks on military targets, or accidental shootings in crowded places, these people go directly to peoples houses, seek women and children intentionally, and slaughter them methodically, one by one, point blank, with full intent, because these victims are the fully intended targets. Wether or not you are willing to make distinction between bad, and worse, I am, and I shall not cease to defend those on the receiving end of such actions nor vote for their support. Again, we have the imperfect, represented by the Israelis, and the worse, represented by those who kill anyone they can, by any means they can, anywhere they can do so. If you're comfortable making cause with them, that's your buisness, I shall not ignore that in fact one side is behaving far more badly than the other. "as a defense of Israeli political strategy (colonialism, cordoning off Palestinians a la Warsaw ghetto)" I have yet to see one solution you would personally undertake to convince the Israelis they should permit those who sneak in and commit such atrocities as I describe above, to drop their cordon and trust those who do such things when cordoned to begin with. This is like the gun debate when I ask what the actual victims of real crime are supposed to do when the cops aren't there, which is nearly all the time, and suddenly it gets very quiet. Because reality is a lot different than nice plans about society and it's "protection" which provably does not occur. And here we are supposed to tell Israelis they are being unreasonable with cordons, and apparently, just let their killers just move into Israel in spite of the fact they slaughter Israelis as it is. Don't worry, I don't really expect an answer, just like I never get one on why citizens here in the US should be deprived of meaningful defense in the face of the fact that the police don't protect them, either. "is transparent and ineffective." Oh, is it "transparent"? I'm really interested to know what it is you could possibly think I'm hiding, since I already say whats on my mind anyway.

Yesterday some Palestinians demonstrated their commitment to peace and careful target selection by breaking into a kibbutz, shooting two people outdoors, then entering a home and shooting a mother hiding her two kids, then the kids, at point blank range. Darned Israelis. 28 brave academics signed a petition to take more worthless stances, and in doings so help out Saddam and his Baath party leninist worldview? What a shock.

Which is even more impressive when you consider UN members will not be fed their own genitals in a blood soaked basement for voting the wrong way.

Those of you who wanted UN support for action against Iraq, now have it. Even Syria is in. Multinational, multilateral, we're not standing alone, all that good stuff. http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,69532,00.html

"it's why Chirac refered to Israel as "that shitty little country." now france is the arbiter of what is shitty... hmmm. Isn't this the same nation with the single greatest increase in anti semitism in recent years, beating of jews on the streets, synagogues attacked, etc, since the Naziis? The france that handed over the jews to Hitler for extermination? That france? The france where govt workers patrol office parking lots searching for cars to show who's working "too much", which is against the law? The france where gangs of wilding immigrants and youths engage in pitched battles involving hundreds? I can see where Chirac has a lot of standing. Well, ok, I've enganged in some slander by proxy which I decry in others, but it was fun, if not entirely consistent. However, I will point out that the nation which demonstrates such persistence of anti semitism may not be the best example to pick for use as exhibiting clear views of Israel. After all, they are the ones who helped Iraq build nukes, until the Israelis thankfully took the bull by the horns and closed that deal definitively. In direct oppostion to our previous administration, who provides nuclear technology to totalitarian states... on the basis of non verified promises they won't be naughty. [ 11-08-2002, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: MtnGoat ]

fine, refer away. I've already said I disagree with Isreal building the settlements! What more do you want from me on this example than agreement that they should not be doing this? Is there an extra super turbo kind of agreement I am not aware of? Regardless of the settlements, the issue remains that in spite of lapses, abuses of power, and problems and imperfections such as any nation exhibits, Israels governance and tactics are, on the whole, superior to those who seek to slaughter them wholesale. As PP pointed out, the Israelies permitted those who attacked them, in this case egypt, to live and escape. Something that does not occur when Pals capture Israelis, they call home on the cell phone of those they are gutting with their bare hands and tell the wife they are killing her husband right now, can she hear him scream? Yup, moral eqivalence in action.

Terry went on TV right after the elections to explain how the results really weren't that bad. It was an amazing demonstration of just why the elections turned out the way they did. What matters isn't what actually happens, but wether the intent was good. A theme we see again and again. Eliminate racism by using racism? no, but we mean well. Can cops *actually* stop crime while we move forward with impeding gun ownership for honest citizens? No, but we mean well. Did you actually *win* the elections on a scale that would advance your agenda? No, but we tried really extra hard!

Welcome to reality. I assume your choice of who to support somehow indicates you have no views of what constitutes "better" or "worse"? Anyone who makes distinctions is inherently exhibiting "chauvanism" merely by using judgement. The issue is not avoiding judgement, which may be a value to some (one I very much disagree with) but how one makes the judgements and by what standard. As I have made it clear, I find a flawed nation, as all are, which maintains rights even at disparate levels, which has laws and courts that even partially function, which has elections that function.... Superior to one where rights of internal disagreement are non existent and who expresses "resistance" by choosing to provably target innocents, with full intent and by design as intended primary targets. We are not comparing the perfect and imperfect, but the imperfect and the *more* imperfect.

I'll read these in detail and respond, off hand one issue that stands out to me is that the second link uses the UN declaration of Human rights as a basis for judgement, which is of course valid given that observers right to do so. However, it's a document I find severely flawed and I am not bound to consider it deterministic or applicable by my standards, just as another observer may choose to do so or not. If this document is used as "proof" of the validity of a particular stance or judgement, I reserve the right to disagree with it anyway. Anyway, I shall read up and respond. From my quick perusal I can already see that a lot of it details problems in Israel I have already mainained is *not* perfect, only far better than those who oppose them.

"Goat, with all due respect, you are being simplistic." Not everything is complex and unmanagable, and complexity is not an excuse for bait and switch. Big projects are complex and these people are paid professionals expected to deal with that very complexity. If they cannot deal with this, they are not the ones who should be running such a project. If they did not have costs and scope properly done *before* they offered it for a vote, that's their responsbility, not that of the voters. It is not acceptable to ask for a vote, then claim a yes vote for one plan applies to an entirely different and far more costly plan. That is *not* what was approved. If planners expect us to take them seriously when they offer something, they should take our approval seriously and have their plan done and accurate *before* they ask for a vote. "The same thing will happen with the Monorail." It may well be, in which case the people paying for it will deserve another vote on it. Money isn't just some abstract something that's just paper or numbers, it means real people spending real time from their lives to generate it, and they deserve absolute control over what their irreplacable time is used for IMO. [ 11-07-2002, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: MtnGoat ]

actually what I was trying to say, is what I said! When the voters approved that plan, they approved *that* plan, not any plan, and not another plan. And certainly not a smaller one that costs way more. Revote is in order. Change the plan again, vote again and so on. Yes votes are not blank checks for any old thing with the same name.

"Greg, the thing is, we already approved light rail." Kind of. What was approved is not the same as what is now presented. The new plan has what, half the coverage, at 2x or 3x the cost? If an approved plan changes, it is not the same plan that was approved and needs to be reapproved. If this is not convenient, IMO this doesn't matter, because it is not intended to be, what is intended is for voters to approve what they will be getting, not approving one thing, and getting, and paying for, another.

winona stole stuff, see the video and observe her actions for yourself. if I stole from a store, I'd be in court, since she has, she deserves the same. She made a really crappy choice stealing from Saks, which due to it's expensive merchandise has a very real interest in preventing shoplifting. I figure the only people this PR will effect adversely is others who shoplift there, which I'm sure part of the intent, because if they'll nail a movie star you'll get the same if you steal. Since I don't intend to shoplift and certainly don't like paying extra to account for those who do, this PR doesn't bother me since I don't steal.

Nuclear is a great option, I'm glad to see the TMI babble shown to be hogwash.

i heard somewhere it was actually filmed on location, but i can't remember the source so I can't prove it.

some of this stuff is pretty funny, but then there's the flipside of the coin. lately some schmucks have taken to busting up mailboxes on our street, and for their three seconds of entertainment I get to spend a saturday buying a new mailbox, digging out the old one, and putting it all together again. At this point their coupla seconds of fun have meant I've spent at least 8-10 hours total I'd much rather use doing something else, especially on a weekend. After the lastest destruction last week, it's getting real old. My wife wants to get an oversized mailbox, put a regular one inside it, fill the gap between the two with concrete and rebar,and mount it on a pipe filled with concrete and clad with wood so it just looks like a bigger wooden post. Idea is to make it look like we've upgraded but it's still plastic and wood, when in fact it's an arm breaker waiting for the next swing. At this point, I'm so tired of fixing the damned thing if it happens again I may just go for it, if they're ok with funny jokes, I guess I am too. [ 10-30-2002, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: MtnGoat ]

So basically, your religion of the mtns supercedes their religion of the mtns, right?

quote: Originally posted by Dr Flash Amazing: quote:Originally posted by iain: quote:Originally posted by E-rock: Goddammit Mountain Goat Called by the formal "Mountain Goat" even. Impressive. Interesting that a stickler (the sticklerest) for detail such as MtnGoat would choose the abbreviated format for his nom de screen. Could this be a chink in the Goat's armor? Could this apparent lack of attention to completeness and detail be the loose block that sends the Goat's great buttresses of reasoning crashing to the ground like so much chossy rubble?Could be I suppose, but it's more likely the remnant of my first foray into email, on a system which only allowed 8 character prefixes. Feel free to rue the day some scurrilous wag introduced the goat to the 'net, eventually resulting in the rending of garments, much lament, and wearing of sackcloth and ashes by appalled "progressives" net wide.

it's hillary clinton before the stylists get done with her. They do a great job of hiding her 5 oclock shadow.

instead of egging houses, we'd go to the butcher store, get liver, calf brains and chicken hearts, and cover them with entrails. even made the local paper. egg "jousting", involving two pickup trucks with three people in the bed of each standing up behind the cab, while racing towards each other as the eggs flew. 13 year old bitten by mtn bug. Buys freedom of the hills, royal robbins rockcraft, etc. Cannot persuade mother to allow rope purchase with paper route money. Instead, learning to rappel on the sly, using the bodywrap (dulfsitz?) method, a long gardenhose, and a tall tree we'd go to the party store and get a roll of grey crepe paper, then go to a dark two lane road where the microsoft campus now is. On the top of a short rise with bad sightlines ahead, we'd string the crepe across the road at windshield height with enough sag so it looked like a 2" steel cable when seen by car headlights. Car comes bombing along, tops rise, sees "cable" slams on brakes and skids into it, it parts like paper, because it is. Great fun until the car whose roof lights start flashing blue and red before it even skids to a stop, with the sound of a dog barking in the back seat. This leads to a midnight foot race through dark cow pastures with barb wire, blackberry bushes, and nettles, propelled by sound of cops shouting and dog barking, everyone made it out without being caught, but we were a mess. little brother buys carbide cannon for 4th of july, this gives his older brother and friend ideas. Teenage idiots obsessed with explosives discover power of acetylene. We buy 4" PVC 5 feet long and build a mount, obtain can of carbide. Drill hole for firecracker fusing. dump a couple rocks of carbide down muzzle, add 2oz water, pound 1/2 of presto log down into muzzle with baseball bat. light fuse and run. will shoot presto log easily out of sight while still going up, and makes tremendous chest thumping *WHUMP* noise which echoes into the distance for some time. Everyone laughs, repeat. Got some great pics of firing it at night, huge fireball with moron, er, assistant, who lit fuse frozen in midstride as he races away. For some reason someone decides we need to shoot presto log straight up, in the dark, and this seems like a good idea until fuse is lit. Then we realize, hey, it's dark, how will we see where it's coming down? BOOM, everyone scatters and dives under cars. I run towards gun, knowing there is no way in hell something going up hundreds of feet is going to fall straight back down and hit cannon. Wicked nasty whistling sound begins from above, followed by hollow thump 20 yards off. no more vertical shots. Obtain 6 feet of 8" pipe and 8 to 4 reducer, add old cannon to barrel of new one. quite a sight going down the 148th Ave NE in Redmond to firing range, with the fire blackened barrel of a cannon now longer than the Datsun it is tied to. Takes two sets of tire chains wrapped around breech to keep cannon aimed upwards. Must stand in pickup bed to load it. Hard to find "friends" who want to light it, because it's creators do not. But there's usually a fool around when you need one. Cannon shoots logs so far we never find them to establish range. After 10 or so shots the cannon explodes at the reducer in a shower of whizzing PVC flying past everyones ears. Miraculously, no one is injured. [ 10-28-2002, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: MtnGoat ]

Amen to mr b52. Allah may bless the faithful, but free individuals, capitalism, and the Buff helps them with a face to face audience. [ 10-28-2002, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: MtnGoat ]

not 100% air tight is probably a bit of an understatement, since Moore is hard pressed to meet a 0% standard!

ran up to the hang glider site at the S end of Rampart at noon to fly some RC. Flew old reliable for 20 minutes in great smooth lift, then got out the new bird for it's second flight, put it through it's paces and chased some ravens around. Then the weather closed in a 1pm, so i climbed into the truck hoping it would pass, read book for 3 hours still hoping it would pass, gave up and drove home. Better than doing chores at home anyway!

don't know about the other two, but I'll stick up for allison, I've done a couple trips with her. She's good people. A bit obsessed with ultralight gear.. but otherwise normal.