Jim

I would say it all depends on the young man or woman. If they had a particular inclination and skill set, were interested in some trade but thinking that for some reason the had to go to college to "succeed" - well then a bit of an analysis is in order. I know folks, including family, that in retrospect would have done a hell of a lot better getting trained in, say PT assistant or dental assistant; plumbing or engine repair - rather than the English and Labor Studies degrees they came out with - both from a financial and overall life benefit standpoint.

Homeopathics! a very lucrative area of private education, as i understand it. Most likely reaping a good living off the liberal arts, English, and art history graduates.

While I think that there should be more done to provide access to kids going the college I would argue just as much for impoved access to technical schools and apprenticeship programs. Shoot - my car mechanic has got to be the most well-read, well-educated person I know. AND he knows how to fix things, which most college grads seem to be afraid of. Plus, he works 4 days a week and likely matches or beats my salary. College is definately not the only alternative and certainly not the only way to develop critical thinking. Yes. Precisely.

Agreed - there is a lot of crap going on with low-performing schools having eligibility for the student loan process. But - buyer beware.

While I think that there should be more done to provide access to kids going the college I would argue just as much for impoved access to technical schools and apprenticeship programs. Shoot - my car mechanic has got to be the most well-read, well-educated person I know. AND he knows how to fix things, which most college grads seem to be afraid of. Plus, he works 4 days a week and likely matches or beats my salary. College is definately not the only alternative and certainly not the only way to develop critical thinking.

Nobody argued that. The shelf-life of any discussion will last longer when words aren't put in people's mouths. Steady Eddie - I responded to this - which in the context of the discussion seems to imply education = better informed = democracy. Critical thinking applied.

I know. Funny in a ha, ha sort of way.

I agree that college should be made more affordable and accessible because, in general, it's a good thing. I'm not buying the better education=utopian democracy however. Given that our percentage of the population with a college education has been steadily increasing it of late seems to have a striking correlation (not saying causation!!) with dumb politics. About 38% of the populace now have at least an AA and I bet a higher percentage are infatuated with the Kardishans. Cue fault of corporate media, demagods, globalization.

more passive aggressive behavior from you, but of course no specifics per usual. Jim seems more the openly aggressive type. More action, less talk...that kind of thing. not from my perspective since I have been the recipient of countless personal attacks below the belt from him mostly without any explanation. He seems to be playing the same game Attila plays. ..below the belt? A personal attack would be - "...you ugly stupid goon.." which I tend to avoid. Now - if I said you posts are full of hyperbole, hand-waving, lack specifics or a thread of logic, include the crisis du minute, and appear to be written while your hair is on fire and/or caught in the car's fan belt. Well, that's a commentary on the the thoughts, or lack thereof, you post. Nothing personal about it.

for the thoughts as compared to, well, you know.....

we'll talk about it in 2012 when you shake in your boots because most people (who are progressive on issues) aren't energized to vote for another round of capitulation. Being a ripe old codger, I don't shake in my boots much. The tide comes in, the tide goes out. I do what I can; sometimes my side wins, sometimes not. It's a never ending struggle; the dumbfucks are not in short supply, and I hear they're making more of them. I'm not sure you speak for what 'progressives' will do in the next election. I hope that everyone will weigh the pros and cons of their voting decisions and act accordingly. It's almost always a lesser of two evils choice; the adults among us understand that. I put very little faith in the judgement of my countrymen, for obvious reasons, however. The trick is to get to enough of them to tip the scales a wee bit in our favor on occasion. Still, if there's any country in the world that needs reform, given its stage front position, its ours. I could run away to New Zealand or some such, but it's too fun battling the Kooky Kristians and Libertariofascistas. My viewpoint doesn't involve so much defeatism because of a raft of historical wins my advocacy organization has enjoyed recently - and next year may even be better if we play our cards right. Reality based constructs - what a concept!!

If that's how you feel, then it sounds like we're mostly misunderstanding each other. ................ If you care about people and in long term change, and it sounds like you do, then it's as much up to you to imagine and present visions, strategies, and solutions that challenge the current configurations of power instead demanding ones cut from whole cloth and then turning away from your better impulses when they're not forthcoming. Thanks for a thoughtful reply. And I think the end of this narrative is the crux of the matter - there are better strategies for the long term (though we might disagree on what is needed on the state level in WA to deal with present realities) BUT - these will require hard work from folks who envision such changes. And from what I've seen, most folks, especially on the liberal end of the spectrum, tend to see their responsibilities in a democracy end when the seal their ballot, stamp it, and drop in the mail. Obama, for example - thinks that his milky version of a right leaning agenda is the only game in town for the Dems precisely because there have been no consequence from his chosen actions. Maybe because doing something interferes with the Deperate Housewives of NJ or whatever, but I see little movement from the masses to make me think the needle on the meter is going to move much away from the right.

Well, that certainly isn't banal and will help pay the rent.

....and what, specifically, pray tell, are you doing to insure that this ambitious agenda is passed in D.C.? And - what specifically would be your recommendation to an incoming freshman, low on tuition cash and waiting for the inevitable windfall from said agenda, to do in the meantime?

...with this one: If you're asking me - I'd say they don't agree. Clearly the middle class -whatever that is - is in a squeeze. While cost have been going down, in real terms, for many durable items - cars, toasters, fridges, and such - costs for important life elements - housing, education, and especially basic medical care are going up in inverse proportion to real wages. No doubt about it. And I generally agree with your assessment of this. What I object to is the notion that somehow this ranks up there with the the dark ages. We should be working for changing the dominant paradigm (sorry - couldn't help it)while marshalling what ever resources needed to get to where you want to go. What is the immediate alternative - arm waving and giving up according to some I suppose.

Then they are weaklings.

I thought I'd step in and keep you from a quaruple post. But please carry on with your insightful comments.

It's not a matter of messing my mellow - it's just dealing with reality. It is what it is and while working for what you beleive is, IMO, a requirement (as opposed to inssesant arm waving on the internet)present conditions aren't a reason to lay down and die. Postponing college to work a bit and save some cash to keep down the debt load is not a bad strategy. Would I prefer that the cash we're throwing down the toilet overseas be funneled into education - who wouldn't. Maybe, just maybe, you could once offer some practical solution to the one of these many crises..The chicken little act gets old.

And I should add that I have some biasis based on my own experiences, as do most folks. I come from a large family where my folks simply could not afford college - so patching together some scholarships, grants, and working part-time during the school year and two jobs every summer loading trucks kept me solvent. While grad school meant more academic-type work during the school year I also cleaned carpets for cash when time allowed. The biggest disappointment for me regarding education funding is the squeezing of very useful grant programs such as the Pell Grants, which can provide a boost to able students with financial challenges. My daughter is finishing up college and we had the early talk about what were my expected contributions to her education and what were her responsibilities. Nothing like some clarity to help your kid along.

Is there ever a thread where the interjectin of "..the world is on fire" doesn't apply for you? Jeesh. Yea, times are tough, they have been before, and somehow we'll muddle through. Yea, it is a real drag that college costs are going up at the current rate and yes that does mean more costs for kids. My point was that if you want to go to college and don't have the cash you can figure out ways and taking out monster loans isn't the only solution. Maybe that means postponing education for a year to work to pull in some cash - maybe it means taking a more critical review of the cost/benefit ratio of an English degree.

OK. Now we're talking. Benefit to education - better health. Except - they were talking about a high school education - not the benefit of college, which seems to be the primary point of the above discussion.

That's a standard regressive talking point: denying that higher leads to better outcomes allows them to say that decreased access to higher edu isn't a crisis. If you could actually provide some data, not a narrative, opinon, or Op-Ed article to back any of this up I might tend to agree. I'm not denying it - but again - the above just your opinion with out any backup. Where did you learn to debate - the internets?

While I agree that certain stoopid government decisions - too many friggin wars to start - are contributing to lower education funding and some lack of access - jesus man, there is personal choice involved here. No one is putting a gun to people's heads to take out loans. The constant harping on "woe is me the government isn't helping..." turns people into constant victims. Yea, it ain't perfect, yea we need some change, but friggin' get on with it already.

I think it's pretty clear that while Germany may be making some minor course corrections regarding spending - it has been their long range investment in education, training, and social well-being that has put them way ahead of us. The US - seriously - are we investing in anything execpt cruise missle technology and ethanol?

Friggin' A. If they can't get rid of such a useless and energy sucking, minor item such as this..... Hard to believe there will be movement on the more pressing and complicated issues. Shoot, 'bama - the corn states ain't voting for you anyway!