Peter_Puget

What groups performed the songs that the following three routes at the Lower Town Town Wall were named after: Sonic Reducer, Pretty Vacant, amd Terminal Preppie.

Those posts advocating Smith, Squamish or City as the best bets for several day visit by an out of towner are right on the money; however, out of those three Squamish has the highest chance of bad weather but in my opinion has the best climbing. How long are you planning to be in the seattle area? If you are going to be in the metro area for awhile I would suggest buying the Traveler's guide at REI ($10.00) and thats all youll need for the areas close to Seattle. Note that Leavenworth Vantage and Tieton are too far away to be included. Honestly for the best advice I think youll have to disclose more of your itinery.

Here's a couple of true Index stories: While climbing a route in the Country I can across a RP in a crack along with three sets of RP and a carabiner. Being a poor climber I was psyched and thought what great booty. Later that night I started thinking what the loser was thinking as he was quite likely equally poor. So I made few phone calls and a few hours later someone called who I never met saying he was the "loser." I returned them via a mutual friend. A few years later I left my pack at the base of Town Walls. The next day coming home my mother said "some guy" called and dropped off my pack. I didn't even realize I had forgotten it. That some guy didn't know me from adam and found out who I was via phone calls that asked: "anyone know who has a brown pack?"

Am I ever sorry that I made the mistake of joking around and saying Dick wasn’t a real person. I actually did it after talking to him in the AM. Believe it or not, I have heard many stories involving Dick over the years that cannot possible be true due to the fact that at the time the story was supposedly taking place he was in half the world away. For the record, Dick is not usually drunk, stoned or disheveled and generally looks in shape. Over the 25 years I have known him he is the most “psyched to climb” person I have ever met. Nic or Erik I am sure you would have a great time bouldering/climbing with him – look at the post for partner wanted. With regard to, Crazyjz’s comments, as far as I know Dick’s never anonymously posted a vitriolic and mean spirited BB post such as his. I am continually amazed at the coarseness and pettiness of the personal attacks sometimes posted here. I am never quite sure of their motivation but they certainly reflect negativity that is not part of my world.

I think the vaccine is not as effective as the more commonly taken vaccines (eg tetnus) and recent evidence points to the vaccine causes rheumatoid arthritis symptoms in at least some humans. I was thinking the vaccine sounded good but now think I need to do more reading on it. Does any one known any one who has used it? I wonder what Drs tell people considering it

Come on haven't any of you ever said you were Dick? I have met several Dicks over the years. Hell I've even been a Dick a couple times in the Icicle. Dru, when did you see him in JT?

FYI: Dick Cilley is just a guidebook invention when the FA party was unknown.

Don't tell Jean Todt he's not part of a team. GO DC!

Although interesting I keep thinking that the continued preoccupation with arguing over specific routes at specific areas misses the larger issue which is that bigger issues are at stake than a particular route or area. In this my 30th year climbing I am convinced that the sword of Damocles is hanging over the sport’s head. The sword being the specter of regulation. Earlier I suggested that no “community” exists. No one responded to this point so I will raise it again. Background: In the late 80s I was at Smith Rocks with a bunch of Sport Climbers. The discussion came up that some “Bird Watchers” were upset at what was happening at the Park. When I said that I remember climbing at Smith in the 70s and that I could see why they were upset. (Note I didn’t say that they were right only I could see their issues) I was astounded that everyone else participating in the discussion looked at me like I was goofy – they could not or at least would not admit to any negative aspects Smith’s transformation. Ultimately their values differed so much from my own and until I could change their values we would never come to the same conclusion. They could not even see a differing position as being valid. It is not a question of us being on different starting positions with hope of finding a meeting place - we were on different planes. Ultimately each viewpoint merely expresses someone’s personal values. Consequently why should each listen to the other? Absent threat of force or I guess public ridicule I can’t see a reason. In otherwords why are one person’s values more important than an others? In short they aren’t. HOWEVER in the context of a “community” people by definition have to deny some of their own personal desires to the greater good. I see the solution in pragmatic terms where actions aren’t ridiculed (see how many rap bolter’s actions have been denigrated in this thread) but viewed in terms of their consequences. Since we all share the same scarce resources and all feel the same affects of changes in land management policy it is precisely around the issue of consequences that a true community can form. For example routes squeezed in creating a bolt grid whether done in a “traditional” or “sport” style are sure to provoke a responses by land managers and other climbers. This is especially true at easily accessible locations. Regardless of FA style routes creating this situation should not be made. Since excessive bolting is an issue with land managers it should always be avoided because of the consequences of the act. Acts at all climbing areas have consequences. A quick response to Pope’s comment regarding the “American Tradition” : You have given a name to a method of first ascent but to say it is a “tradition” is a far different matter. I brought up Jardine not so much to illustrate he broke the rules but to show that the mass of climbers seem to now consider the use of chopped holds valid in freeing a route. The cover of the free climbs guidebook to Yosemite even goes so far as to show a route now bolted that was originally climbed w/o bolts. I am simply suggesting that “American Tradition” was something advocated as the “right thing” for a short period of time and collapsed as the (publicized) predominant ethos at the first opportunity. It is in no way a tradition in a meaningful sense of the word.

1. Seems like in many ways this thread can logically be joined up with “The Future” thread. 2. In any meaningful sense there is no “community.” There are a group of people who can be classified apart from others by an activity they engage in. The question is not “how can the community keep rap bolting out of WA Pass or develop rules of conduct that will prevent regulation of government?” Absent a real community the question expressed here is how can I prevent one of my favorite areas (WA Pass) from turning into something I don’t like. What if a community did develop and decided unequivocally that Wa Pass should be a Sport area? Would you be part of that community? Abide by its consensus? Appeal to the land manager directly? 3. The issues at Wa Pass are those faced all over the State (Country) and cannot be viewed in isolation. For example, the widespread use of chipping and overbolting (both frowned upon by land managers and a large percentage of climbers) institutionalized at Si is often discounted by 1) proclaiming that these activities are limited in area, 2) the area can only be developed by rap bolting and cleaning. 3) the routes are popular or 4) I don’t climb that hard how can I say anything. Yet due to their popularity these areas become models by which land manager judge climbers and models by which young climbers take their cue. These areas have been used explicitly to justify recent rebolting activity in the Country area at Index where new bolts were added to existing climbs as well as some routes that were protectable by non-fixed protection. Is the condor route merely an extension of these activities to the Icicle? The Concord Tower route to Wa Pass? 4 The “Yosemite” or “American Tradition” is not all it is cracked up to be. After all didn’t some of the first 5.10s in Yosemite have rap placed bolts. Didn’t the free ascent of the Nose use Jardine’s chipped holds? Americans are nothing but pragmatists and the American tradition has been extremely mutable over time and with the extreme changes in the climbing environment it can have little use but to remove any debate over current activities – esp. when the tradition being used is mythical. 5 The development of a “Community” is essential. How can this be done? By discussions such as this but also by all climbers discussing these issues and realizing that these discussion s do not have to be mean spirited and that they are in fact essential to the development of a community. I would go so far as to say that climbers have an obligation to discuss/debate these issues. Mark Twight by virtue of his being Mark Twight should have no more authority than any other member. All voices are important if they are willing to particpate in the debate constructively. The Access Fund and other groups cannot remove this obligation. 6 The development of a community will most probably result in a consensus that is often at conflict with the personal desires of some of the community. Members of the community subordinate their personal interests. Some won’t. Peer pressure can often work wonders on these rogues. (Disclaimer: This was written quickly at work. Please forgive the poor construction)