stonewall

...love that area. Nice photos. Looks like a stellar trip.

Jon once told me that Fred sent him hate mail after the Outside piece in the 90s: Said that he started receiving lots of advertising materials for hearing aids. Fred's point obvious enough.

Kathmandu

boring

Isn't it dumbfounding that the coalition of nations in the UN can not find a way to take action in the Sudan? They even have oil for crying out loud! Isn't this why nations have militaries, to prevent things like genocide from happening anywhere on earth? But we are talking about Africa here and once again the people being slaughtered are the darkest skinned people on earth. This my friends is a product of the social construction of reality by scientific positivists that still subsribe to social darwinism!!! Until people learn to think beyond "race" the skin deep reality of difference will remain obfuscated and ethnic cleansing will continue along a path of destruction....I think it's great that this is being discussed on a climbers forum. Let's take another step RIGHT NOW and send an email to the Sudanese Embasy and demand and end to the Genocide! It's another place to start and a critical place to voice your politics. http://www.sudanembassy.org/

Save yourself time and money--move to Peru--Climb--then find yourself an academic program that fits your interests. just a thought Stoney

People that make remarks such as this are bored. Find yourself a life and live it. -Stoney

This existence of ours is as transient as autumn clouds. To watch the birth and death of beings is like looking at the movements of a dance. A lifetime is like a flash of lightning in the sky, rushing by, like a torrent down a steep mountain. -Buddha

A nice discussion forum: http://www.hcn.org/

Hey, Thanks everyone, for contributing to this thread! Let's keep up the dialogue and take responsibility for protecting access and quality of wilderness in the Cascades.

aaah, yes as expected, granite is being disgraced in the Snow creek wall area, Soon the safety of the indoors will be found at your favorite crag. "Dude, it's the future so get over it" right? It's hard to sit by and watch the sport I love become just another motor sport. Let's see, I'm trying to put this in perspective; I can let the place go to shit or I can write a letter to the U.S forest Service and suggest enforcing a no motor drill law. I guess I'm ready to pay that permit fee, if it means better protection of granite resources. Hmmmm, parking at snow creek lot $10 dollars, then climbing permit $7 dollars per day. That's only $34 dollars for a weekend at Leavenworth. I guess I can handle that; I do work at microsoft after all.

Are there any more thoughts on this topic?

Yes we all are well aware of the fact that one must weed through these posts to find the gems. There is no Lynch mob or witch hunt going on here. I totally respect the guys that are working on these routes. the purpose of this forum topic is to hash out ideas that might raise awareness to all tuning in. The purpose is to get people talking, communicating and voicing their oppinions: to create a buzz. I'm disapointed fingers have been pointed at individuals, but I guess it comes with the territory. The real issue isn't about them. The real issue is about how we go about protecting a natural resource. In this case we are talking about Cascadian granite. The last thing we need is more government regulations and fees in the Cascades. I would like to see Washington pass remain a place where we can escape the built environment. It's a damned shame there is a highway there to begin with. The Cascades are being encroached apon by all sorts of development: Stevens Pass is on its way to becoming some kind of damned "resort". It is clear to me that WA. Pass isn't far behind. I think it is important to think hard about how we want to leave the Cascades for future generations... I remember the first time I went there at age sixteen. I was backcountry skiing on Blue Mountain and went home totally inspired to learn how to rock climb so that I could return to climb Liberty Bell in the spring. The ascent that followed changed my life; It made me realize climbing was an exercise in self-reliance. In the years since I have returned to Wa pass every year and have skiied and climbed many of the surounding peaks. I often ask myself what makes WA pass such a special place; it is quality of wilderness without a doubt. This is the American far west for gods sake, the last frontier. Climbers know this, they are the last of the pioneers. We live here because the Cascades are here....We don't have to model our mountain environments after the Europeans! We have ideas of our own! We don't need huts, cable cars, Via Ferrata style routes and ski lifts developed all over the range. THIS ISN'T THE AMERICAN ALPS! This is the CASCADES! So how does this relate to the development of sport climbs at Washington pass? It is this kind of mechanised "development" that changes wilderness into a "built environment" Stefan suggested humans not need visit every place on the planet. Edward Abbey said wilderness isn't for everyone. They both make good points, but climbers are misfits and the thought of being in isolated wild places stirs our imagination. The idea of visiting a place where no one has been is something we dream of. Wa. Pass embraces that wild feeling. I understand my idealism doesn't jive with everyones idea of the ultimate climbing experience, but then again maybe it does groove with many. I don't know. So we are looking at the state of the environment and the state of "the sport of climbing". Clearly both are in jepordy and they are linked inextricably together. I argue that the quality of a climbing experience is directly related to quality of the place that one is climbing. A classic climb stimulates the senses; It is, in part, the smell of the air, silence and the feeling you are in a place that has been largely unaffected by human hands. It is a place to free yourself from the consraints of society. I'm well aware of the fact that the likelyhood of preserving Wa. pass as a "natural" climbing area is a far fetched dream, The domination of nature always seems to prevail because progress is measured in dollars or....How many routes can be done in a day etc..... It's all progress untill you have to figure out how to undo what's been set in stone. I suggest looking at the big picture. not just Wa. Pass or the routes that have been mentioned, but the American West for example; from Punta Reinas to the Gates of the Arctic. What makes these places what they are. What makes them cool places to climb. I argue it is the fact that they are all different. They all have a distinct Character. That is why I am suggesting that we not turn every piece of rock in Washington State into Exit 38 style climbing. Let's keep it inspired. Let's let the rock decide where we can and cant go. Let's not skrew ourselves by threatening wilderness areas with power tools. ------------------ Stoney

This forum is the crowbar and all of you are its leverage. Once again, let's keep it real. ------------------ Stoney

xxxxx [This message has been edited by stonewall (edited 04-20-2001).]