stonewall

...love that area. Nice photos. Looks like a stellar trip.

Jon once told me that Fred sent him hate mail after the Outside piece in the 90s: Said that he started receiving lots of advertising materials for hearing aids. Fred's point obvious enough.

Kathmandu

boring

Isn't it dumbfounding that the coalition of nations in the UN can not find a way to take action in the Sudan? They even have oil for crying out loud! Isn't this why nations have militaries, to prevent things like genocide from happening anywhere on earth? But we are talking about Africa here and once again the people being slaughtered are the darkest skinned people on earth. This my friends is a product of the social construction of reality by scientific positivists that still subsribe to social darwinism!!! Until people learn to think beyond "race" the skin deep reality of difference will remain obfuscated and ethnic cleansing will continue along a path of destruction....I think it's great that this is being discussed on a climbers forum. Let's take another step RIGHT NOW and send an email to the Sudanese Embasy and demand and end to the Genocide! It's another place to start and a critical place to voice your politics. http://www.sudanembassy.org/

Save yourself time and money--move to Peru--Climb--then find yourself an academic program that fits your interests. just a thought Stoney

People that make remarks such as this are bored. Find yourself a life and live it. -Stoney

This existence of ours is as transient as autumn clouds. To watch the birth and death of beings is like looking at the movements of a dance. A lifetime is like a flash of lightning in the sky, rushing by, like a torrent down a steep mountain. -Buddha

A nice discussion forum: http://www.hcn.org/

Hey, Thanks everyone, for contributing to this thread! Let's keep up the dialogue and take responsibility for protecting access and quality of wilderness in the Cascades.

aaah, yes as expected, granite is being disgraced in the Snow creek wall area, Soon the safety of the indoors will be found at your favorite crag. "Dude, it's the future so get over it" right? It's hard to sit by and watch the sport I love become just another motor sport. Let's see, I'm trying to put this in perspective; I can let the place go to shit or I can write a letter to the U.S forest Service and suggest enforcing a no motor drill law. I guess I'm ready to pay that permit fee, if it means better protection of granite resources. Hmmmm, parking at snow creek lot $10 dollars, then climbing permit $7 dollars per day. That's only $34 dollars for a weekend at Leavenworth. I guess I can handle that; I do work at microsoft after all.

Are there any more thoughts on this topic?

Yes we all are well aware of the fact that one must weed through these posts to find the gems. There is no Lynch mob or witch hunt going on here. I totally respect the guys that are working on these routes. the purpose of this forum topic is to hash out ideas that might raise awareness to all tuning in. The purpose is to get people talking, communicating and voicing their oppinions: to create a buzz. I'm disapointed fingers have been pointed at individuals, but I guess it comes with the territory. The real issue isn't about them. The real issue is about how we go about protecting a natural resource. In this case we are talking about Cascadian granite. The last thing we need is more government regulations and fees in the Cascades. I would like to see Washington pass remain a place where we can escape the built environment. It's a damned shame there is a highway there to begin with. The Cascades are being encroached apon by all sorts of development: Stevens Pass is on its way to becoming some kind of damned "resort". It is clear to me that WA. Pass isn't far behind. I think it is important to think hard about how we want to leave the Cascades for future generations... I remember the first time I went there at age sixteen. I was backcountry skiing on Blue Mountain and went home totally inspired to learn how to rock climb so that I could return to climb Liberty Bell in the spring. The ascent that followed changed my life; It made me realize climbing was an exercise in self-reliance. In the years since I have returned to Wa pass every year and have skiied and climbed many of the surounding peaks. I often ask myself what makes WA pass such a special place; it is quality of wilderness without a doubt. This is the American far west for gods sake, the last frontier. Climbers know this, they are the last of the pioneers. We live here because the Cascades are here....We don't have to model our mountain environments after the Europeans! We have ideas of our own! We don't need huts, cable cars, Via Ferrata style routes and ski lifts developed all over the range. THIS ISN'T THE AMERICAN ALPS! This is the CASCADES! So how does this relate to the development of sport climbs at Washington pass? It is this kind of mechanised "development" that changes wilderness into a "built environment" Stefan suggested humans not need visit every place on the planet. Edward Abbey said wilderness isn't for everyone. They both make good points, but climbers are misfits and the thought of being in isolated wild places stirs our imagination. The idea of visiting a place where no one has been is something we dream of. Wa. Pass embraces that wild feeling. I understand my idealism doesn't jive with everyones idea of the ultimate climbing experience, but then again maybe it does groove with many. I don't know. So we are looking at the state of the environment and the state of "the sport of climbing". Clearly both are in jepordy and they are linked inextricably together. I argue that the quality of a climbing experience is directly related to quality of the place that one is climbing. A classic climb stimulates the senses; It is, in part, the smell of the air, silence and the feeling you are in a place that has been largely unaffected by human hands. It is a place to free yourself from the consraints of society. I'm well aware of the fact that the likelyhood of preserving Wa. pass as a "natural" climbing area is a far fetched dream, The domination of nature always seems to prevail because progress is measured in dollars or....How many routes can be done in a day etc..... It's all progress untill you have to figure out how to undo what's been set in stone. I suggest looking at the big picture. not just Wa. Pass or the routes that have been mentioned, but the American West for example; from Punta Reinas to the Gates of the Arctic. What makes these places what they are. What makes them cool places to climb. I argue it is the fact that they are all different. They all have a distinct Character. That is why I am suggesting that we not turn every piece of rock in Washington State into Exit 38 style climbing. Let's keep it inspired. Let's let the rock decide where we can and cant go. Let's not skrew ourselves by threatening wilderness areas with power tools. ------------------ Stoney

This forum is the crowbar and all of you are its leverage. Once again, let's keep it real. ------------------ Stoney

xxxxx [This message has been edited by stonewall (edited 04-20-2001).]

W, Thanks for your comments. I'm listening; I see things a bit differently. I believe the community does need to collectivly set standards as to how new routes are developed at WA. pass. You say "The approach to the problem is all important, not the problem itself." What kind of approach do you recommend? I'm not comfortable with the passive approach of just climbing true to my idea of ethical when someone comes along and decides they want to turn Washington's Roadside-Alpine-trad-area into a sport climbing area. what are you suggesting, that I take my trad ethics elsewhere? Do you really think "The best you can do is to live out that truth and by example point the way for others." Aren't we pointing the way for others when we rip five hundred dollars worth of bolts out of a multi pitch route. I think the way is clearly defined:... East on SR20 Toward Frenchmans Coulee! ------------------ Stoney

Wow, everyone seems to be avoiding the point of this forum topic. I'll accept the blame for not being more clear. Please think on these things and share your thoughts.... How, without the aid of a government agency, should we protect the integrity of the roadside climbing areas in the Cascades? After all, If someone rap bolts a beautiful expanse of rock in a style less than par and the community makes no protest, it is the same as encouraging more over-bolted routes that can be climbed blindfolded. Over-bolting a route is disgracefull and negates the quality of the area. Without pointing my finger at the people that are putting up these botched bosch clip-ups, I'd like to voice my oppinion: First, If the community doesn't chop these kindigarten routes we'll have to live with more of them going up. Chopping a route is a mess and a pain in the ass! It takes a lot of work. But the chopping is done in the name of preserving the integrity of the area. It clearly communicates that the community demands an ethic to be lived by. If you want to rap-bolt go somewhere else. Why destroy the traditional quality of Wasington Pass? I never suggested not using bolts at all; I'm suggesting doing your route from the ground up with a hand drill at Washington Pass. If you want to rap-bolt with power tools go somewhere with lower standards. ------------------ Stoney

Is this the "Murder of the Impossible" that an Alpinist warned us of in the 1960's? I posted this topic in hopes of bringing light to an old debate that is unresolved and clearly needs to be revisited. I'm a sport climber and have nothing against Rap-Bolting with a power drill, but I do think problems arise with this technology. The problem I would like to address is where should rap-bolting take place? I don't think Washington rock should be a free-for-all to anyone with enough doe to buy a Bosch. Routes are established by people with a combination of imagination and skill and climbing areas are established by a community of climbers that cultivate an area into a place that reflects the climbing style of the community. There is also a temporal component to this style. Routes that were established in different time periods have a cultural history....Have you ever clipped Fred's Ring angle on the West Ridge of Prusik? So how will the current climbing culture impact the Cascades? All ascents leave there mark, but how much of a mark can we justify leaving? I'm not comfortable going down in history as the generation that beat the cascades into submission by way of motorized technology. It's anti-wilderness. Simmilarly, I feel the same way about logging in the Cascades; Clearcutting is anti-wilderness, select cutting is arguably wise-use. Since I'm a sport climber who likes doing hard clip-ups on granite, but also think it's important to preserve the cultural history and natural history of the Cascades, I suggest we re-evaluate where we use power tools for climbing. Little Si would not have been developed without Rap-bolting. Washington pass was developed without Rap-bolting; that should establish the ethics right there. So how has the bolting problem been addressed in the past? The ethic, that was once firmly established in American climbing, is climb it from the ground up without power tools. Now this is a good rule to live by for several reasons. First and foremost, it inhibits what is possible and creates a whole host of problems for the climber; how to engineer a safe route into uncharted vertical territory without buying the farm. I use the word problem...Sound familiar. Can you think of any other reasons?? So in a place like Washington pass where the natural character of the formations lends natural routes, one should play by the rules of the environment and established ethics aggreed apon by the community that uses that place for climbing. So the questions I'm bring to this forum are: What defines the character of the roadside places you like to climb? How are these places different and how do they compare to the places you consider boring or less challenging? Finally, How would you feel if all roadside crags became sport climbing areas?

Climbing in Washington has been deeply influenced by the ethics established in Yosemite. The community has long self governed the rock formations that go un-noticed by the rest of the world, but times are changing and the sport is evolving into a more fashionable pursuit. So how will this resource be managed in the future? We play a delicate game, often in "wilderness" areas. As we've seen recently in Joshua Tree, agencies are embarking in a full-on bolt removal campaign to protect the natural quality of that new National Park and long time crag. And the Bosch drill is becoming the norm at places like Index and Leavenworth, I know. So where is the line to be drawn? Do we need a governmental agency to draw it for us? Washington Pass is in a vulnerable position; it's next to a road that was built just over thirty years ago. There is no doubt that locals are paving the way for others to bosch sport routes into what I see as a monument to the wildness of the Cascades. So regardless of whether the route would have gone without bolts, rap-bolting with a power drill will change the nature of the places we share at Washington Pass for better or worse; It depends on why you climb. The fact of the matter is Prusik Peak would make an amazing sport crag....So where is the line to be drawn folks? You will decide, until the decision is made for you. So consider playing the game by the rules that are American in character: Ground up or leave it for someone who can. ------------------ Stoney

Perhaps this is the place to get some feed back on the recent bolt assisted exploits that have gone on in the Cascades. A clip-up has been established on Concord Tower. How do folks feel about Washington Pass becoming a sport climbing area? ------------------ Stoney