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speaking of kathmandu street scammers: the Nepalis, like many eastern cultures, have little to no equivalent for the word "no" as it is considered too abrupt or rude. When someone offers you tiger balm, gorkha knives, sarangis, or anything else you are not interested in, the nepali phrase "Chain Dai Na", which translated means effectively "absolutely not needed", spoken in a quiet voice, will make yourself clear and they will usually stop their sales pitch immediately. Or more likely they may be surprised you know some Nepali and will then want to talk to you (in english) and find out more about you and who you are, where you come from. But saying "no" will only make them follow you, especially if you are abrupt; in nepal if someone thinks they have upset you in any way they will follow you around trying to correct the situation. this may seem like minor advice but sometimes the whole scene can be overwhelming and in the streets there is nowhere to hide. Also, if I may give a plug for a friend, Hira Dhamala from Karnali Excursions in Thamel is a wonderful man and runs a good hotel (The Excelsior), and his company arranges good transportation and tours for just about anywhere. Check it out, and have a great trip.

Stoney, i think it goes without saying that power drills should be off limits in wilderness and alpine areas. I think most everyone sees it that way. And I agree that overbolting routes is bad, and that a ground-up approach is far more ethical and honorable in the alpine zone. But chopping routes you don't like is not the answer. This will only breed opposition. Nor is the collective "community" creating a set of rules the answer either. I pointed this out in an earlier post, but if I may say so, you are not listening. You have a definite set of conclusions about what is a good style, what is right, what is a good route, what is overbolted. So do I, and so does the next guy, and so does the guy putting up the new route at S. early winters. So who is to decide the new rules, the actions to be taken on behalf of everyone? You? Me? Who will do it? As I indicated earlier: if we really look into our own motives, as individuals, for our actions- again, I'm talking psychologically (no one wants to talk about or address this though)- we might discover that the truth of it has its own action, and a person will perhaps then see the true significance or insignificance of putting up yet another bolted route. This action is not relegated to climbing. Even in finding the truth as an individual, to organize it and "convert" others to your way of thinking is to destroy the truth, distort it, use it for your own gain. The best you can do is to live out that truth and by example point the way for others. This may not prevent a shitty overbolted route from being put up on your favorite mountain; on the other hand, all the anti-war protests and organized movements haven't stopped our governments from playing soldier year and year out either. The collective attitude is changed one person at a time, and if you, who are that collective, have changed, then that in itself is sufficient.

I certainly am not advocating the chopping of bolts, let me first make that clear. Backcountry dog, I don't know how much of your post was directed at me, but I was attempting momentarily to depart from analyzing washington pass specifically, and look at the whole issue rather than one part. While it may appear that I am grossly anti-bolting, in fact that is not the case at all. I am merely suggesting, without targeting anyone in particular, that we all give some critical thought to bolting before running out with the bosch. Perhaps you are so enlightened about what's right and what's not but not everyone else is. Yeah, it might have gotten off the subject a bit but I think in all actions, bolting or whatever, that may have repercussions or long term effects be it public outrage, approval, or government intervention, we need to ensure that we are not acting impulsively. That's all; just a head check. Bolts may be "here and here to stay", but without careful inquiry into our urges to go drill whatever looks nice- government fees, regs, anchor bans and monetary fines will also be here and here to stay.

Too bad Mark Twight doesn't put in his two cents here about bolting in the mountains. We'd get a real earful. I think we have to be real careful about indiscriminate bolting, particularly in wilderness areas. the USFS is just itching to throw more restrictions and regulations and fees at us, and if people have an open-season attitude about every crackless piece of rock out there, we could be headed for trouble. So where do we draw the line? Who decides what is classic enough to bolt and what is not? I've also heard numerous arguments about bolting old aid lines that have poor and/or hard to place pro, so that "we can try to free it". Someone once asked Jim Bridwell if the Pacific Ocean Wall on el cap might go free; the Bird saw this for what it was: as a roundabout request to add bolts to a line that includes tons of copperheads and thin nailing and is unacceptably runout for free climbing. His response was non-confrontational yet was direct and left no option for the suitor: "maybe, but the protection would be very very bad...". Establishing new bolted lines of course is quite a different matter from adding bolts to established routes, but in this modern day and age with so many people climbing, and so many people watching us, I think in mountain/wilderness areas particularly there needs to be some restraint, some self-soul-searching by all of us about what is really needed. what is it about this ravenous appetite we have for "first ascents" anyway? This isn't like the old days when new ridges and crack systems await everywhere. So we're increasingly turning to the mountains, or wherever possible, to contrive any new route we can so we can satisfy our urge to claim an "FA". Getting a first ascent may have some special significance for each of us, but what is really behind this urge for it, everyone? Put the question to yourselves. You can come up with just about any reason, but for all of us I think the ego is involved at least in some capacity. If we can put the ego away for a minute, perhaps we will see clearer about what is really necessary; perhaps we will be content to just CLIMB, regardless of whether someone has been there before. perhaps then the mountains will remain, at least in some places, pristine and wild. Establishing a set of rules for everyone to follow is not the answer. I think the answer is to look at ourselves and ask these questions.

Many people take the helicopter to the base- not that I advocate that or anything. I have heard, however, stories in which people found the glacier approach above Berg Lake to be very broken and extremely difficult routefinding. I also know someone who tried to reach the north face by approaching the Kain Face, and then crossing over the Helmet/Robson col, but said it was really bad- a cornice or something blocked the col and the glacier also was bad. But I imagine things change from year to year. Stump/Logan by the way has been attempted numerous times since it was first climbed, including several attempts I believe by Blanchard/House et.al. Until someone proves otherwise, this route seems pretty sick.

When I started climbing, I wasn't even aware that I was participating in a "sport", because I wasn't doing it to compete with other people. It was/is something I do because of the great relationships I have with my friends and partners, and because I love being in the mountains and meeting the challenges they offer. "Sport", or more appropriately, indoor gym climbing and outdoor bolted climbing, has its place for me- as a training venue. Gyms can be a great place to train during the work week, and also are a great place for children and people of all ages to get started learning basics in a safe environment. I don't mean to denounce the comps- but I find it peculiar that man, ever exercising his need to compare himself to others, his need to be better than the next guy, has let competition enter into climbing. As it is, it's always been there in so many subtle and not so subtle ways: from the friendly rivalries among alpinists, to dueling guide services, to heated races to grab first ascents, all the way to the stereotypical huge egos of fat-walleted seven summit tickers. While I imagine that most people will say that the comps are merely for fun, and for many this may in fact be the case, having myself grown up playing league sports and seeing all of the "bad sports dads" (and moms), I have to say that teaching kids to climb and to develop a competitive attitude to go with their skills doesn't sound very healthy to me. No doubt some of these kids will take their talent and competitive attitudes outside and will stretch the boundaries. It is already happening, in fact. Yosemite history is being rewritten; on the other hand, in another light, the heavy air of competition and one-upsmanship hanging over the whole "scene", in my eyes at least, kind of tarnishes what are otherwise some outstanding achievements. Who cares what so and so did if they are just an arrogant an unapproachable person? Most at the top of the climbing standard are not like this, of course, I don't mean to imply that. But it seems that modest climbers are getting harder to find these days. So if you're asking where the future of our sport lies- for me, it isn't a sport, it is just a creative movement of my life; and the future of it to me lies the same as with all other aspects of my life: strong relationships, seeing the beauty, meeting great challenges, developing insight to transcend the limits of what I thought possible, and always- living the state of timelessness. Competition has no significance to me at all. Just my view, anyway.

Why do you care what he thinks? Whether he's serious or not, nobody needs to prove or justify themselves to him or anyone else. I don't need to play his game.

Dylan, You might have already checked it, but there is a thread about the South Buttress on Page 2 of the climber's board in which I gave another guy the beta on the 1954 route, which I did (from the Ruth Amp.) in 1996. However, I can help you out on the entire buttress beta as well; in 1995, our first attempt, we reached the top of Lotsa face and got weathered out. So we decided to retreat the lower South Buttress, in the blind, to the Kahiltna, knowing only that it had been done only once, that being the previous year (1994). From Margaret Pass we traversed along the ridgecrest, passing over two 12,200' peaks- the first of which involved some exposed traversing on blue ice, followed by an extremely sharp knife-edge with a short corniced section and lots of exposure. The second, peak 12,240, which stands in full view of Kahiltna Base, was easy but there is substantial cornicing on the north side of the ridge, and there are also some crevasses in the ridgecrest. From 12,240, for our descent to the se fork, we had no idea where the other's route had gone, and from above it was impossible to see- so we guessed, and guessed very wrong- descending to the skier's left, straight toward the Moonflower Buttress on Hunter, looming directly across the canyon. One of my partners took a 30' crevasse fall as we end-ran parallel to a crevasse, then we downclimbed 1800 feet of 45-60 degree ice in a terrifying gutter scoured by the house sized seracs looming directly over our heads the whole way; but it was the only way down now that we were over half way down the 4000' descent. It sucked and I felt lucky to have lived in retrospect, one of those "learning experiences" in the formative years, so to speak. Anyway this isn't important, what is important is that you do not go this way. The other group as I recall climbed from the col between Mt. Francis and 12,240, and from what I've observed at base camp it looks straightforward. Watch the avy danger though. By the way, the ridge from 12,240 to Margaret Pass is spectacular, both for the ridge traverse/climbing and for the views of Hunter Foraker, and Denali on three sides. It was one of my most memorable days in the Alaska Range. If you have any more questions let me know, and good luck! ps- I don't know about the remaining four, but Tahoe Rowland I believe was killed a year or two later in an avalanche somewhere, and Mike Vanderbeek, an NPS climbing volunteer, died in a fall from 16,000 on the west buttress in 1998 while on a rescue mission in poor weather.

Dave, I have a great deal of experience in outwitting Uncle Sugar in Yosemite. However, for fear of them catching on to some of my tricks, I am not going to publicly disclose them. However, I will tell you this: No matter where you park and try cooking and sleeping, you'll get caught sooner or later. Eventually they may even start recognizing you and will boot you from the park. It CAN be done, but don't be surprised to have a spotlight on your vehicle at 4 AM and a heavily armed ranger beating on the window with a flashlight. Even if you are hiding in there with your windows and curtains shut, and have been discreet, a common trick is for them to announce either in person or over the loudspeaker "we know you're in there, come on out!!" when they see a vehicle like a VW bus or a van, where someone might be sleeping. They may in fact have no inkling you're in there, but more than one sucker has surrendered and opened the door, to find the ranger walking away already, turning around surprised and going "oh, we didn't really know! well, good, now GET MOVING!" Truthfully, having pursued all avenues of existence in the valley, the best bet is to do Camp 4 ($3 a night, with a seven day limit until Sept. 1, then its 30 days) if you are going to be there more than a few days. In order to get a campsite in high summer and fall, you'll need to sleep in front of the kiosk or else show up no later than maybe 6 am to get a good place in line. The booth opens at 8:30 but usually by 7:30 there can be 30 or more people in line and often not everyone gets accomodated. Until last fall I had never been hassled sleeping in front of the kiosk; then I was rousted at 4:30 am by a ranger rudely shining a maglight in my eyes. He ordered me to "get moving", and I then watched him walk to his patrol car and drive away. Shaking my head, I walked 30 feet to another tree and resumed my sleep for another 2 hours. On one occasion the rangers did a midnight raid looking for dirt baggers in the camp, mistakenly wakening several campers when they missed seeing their tent tags. It's kinda heinous, but then it's kind of getting to be as much a part of the valley experience as Degnan's and granite. well almost. whatever you do, if you bend the rules be discreet as hell; the NPS is really watching climbers, and we have to take responsibility for our actions. Agree with the regs or not, Yosemite is a heavily used place and we need to foster a good relationship with the NPS or else there will be even more rules. Good climbing to you!

Sorry, forgot to put that in. They are 'L', I believe (don't have them in front of me), but I am 5'11" and they fit me well.

Though it didn't happen to me, several years ago I saw up close something worthwhile: While belaying at the 12th belay on the Zodiac, El Capitan, I watched the British climber leading the previous pitch blow a hook move 10 feet below me. He fell back, pulling piece after piece, including a 1/4" bolt 20 feet below him, struck a glancing blow off a ledge 35 feet down, at which point I could hear the air expire loudly from his lungs, then launched, head first, down the cliff. To the continued accompaniment of "thunk, thunk, thunk, thunk, thunk" (his pieces ripping), I watched in amazement as he disappeared down the overhanging wall. The last thing I saw was the bottom of his feet. An instant later, I heard an anguished groan, and the rope stretch catapulted him back upward; his contorted face appeared briefly, coming towards me, before he fell back again and out of view. Turns out he had ripped the entire pitch to within 20 feet of the belay, including 2 # 4 camalots in a hollow flake, fixed pins, the bolt, you name it, until a friend inverted in the crack and stopped him. Falling way past the belay, his fall had easily exceeded 175 feet! I screamed down to his partner, concerned about him. After a moment, and after calling out continuously, leaning far out from the wall, I could just see the two brits, now reunited at the belay; the leader was now wearing sunglasses (at twilight) and smoking a cig. His partner replied, in a thick british accent: "E'S ALRIGHT! E'S FINE! BUT E'S DONE FOR THE DAY!!!

Folks, I have a Moonstone Liberty Ridge Sleeping Bag, Gore-Tex, which has been overfilled twice with 800+ down, and by itself rates the bag to about -25F. I also have 2 different Moonstone snap-in liners for the bag. Each adds about 15-20 degrees to the rating (only one at a time can be used of course). One of the liners is down, the other is synthetic. I've used this bag system on several trips to Alaska. The bag has kept me warm in -45 degree temps. The synthetic is particularly nice because in prolonged moist storms it keeps a dry layer close to you when the rest of the bag begins to get damp. For the bag alone- $250. For each liner- $50 OR For the bag + 1 liner: $285 For the bag + 2 liners: $320 Also, I have a pair of Feathered Friends 40 below pants. They have been used on several Alaska trips. They are comfy around camp. $225

Glenn, I did the south buttress 5 years ago, starting from the Ruth Amp. The west fork of the Ruth is mellow until 9000' where a crevassed icefall bars the way. There were very wide crevasses splitting almost the entire width of the glacier. We were able to pass the biggest one by going far to the left, but there was some exposure to hanging seracs. At the end of the canyon is no place to be if it snows a lot. The walls are high and the glacier very narrow. The 2200' foot ice face leading you out of here is avalanche prone. Since 96, it appears to have broken up considerably and there may now be some serious crevasse problems. Going in June (we did it in April) I'd be worried about the avy danger on this slope and in the canyon in general. Climb at night and choose your campsites with great heed in here! The "lotsa" face from 12400 to 13600 is composed of brittle, smooth, diamond hard 50 degree ice and is tiring with a big pack. This is the crux. Once on the buttress crest, the route is pretty simple, but a few corniced sections keep things interesting. We were heavy and so instead of finishing direct on the SE face, descended into Thayer Basin and crossed it, then climbed onto the Thayer ridge via another low angle but taxing blue ice slope. This ridge might be the most spectacularly beautiful place I have ever been. The east face falls away 10,000 feet to the Traleika Glacier! The climbing is easy along here. The high camp at 17,200 along the edge of Harper Glacier is a raw and unprotected place. The night we arrived the winds ravaged our camp. There is a good boulder to pitch the tent beneath, in a hollow right off the crest. The NE ridge is a nice way to hit the top, easy. Then we traversed Denali Pass the next day and so didn't have to drag all our gear higher than 18k. The route obviously is really long. we tried it the previous year and were defeated by weather and going too light (you don't hear the latter reason very often, but in this case it was actually true!). Our successful climb was a siege effort essentially, no fixed lines, but we double carried a great deal of the early sections of the route. While my style of climbing has since changed, and so I wouldn't do a route of this type again, I will disagree with you, J. The ridgecrest doesn't ascend much, no, but is a magnificent place. Full on views of the Ruth and Kahiltna. We spent 31 days on this climb (28 to to reach the top, 3 to carry over and descend to Kahiltna Base)and after day 2 in the Ruth Amp. didn't see another soul til 26 days later. This way was also nearly a high-level circumnavigation that allowed us to view all sides of the mountain and the surrounding peaks. [This message has been edited by W (edited 03-23-2001).] [This message has been edited by W (edited 03-23-2001).] [This message has been edited by W (edited 03-23-2001).]

VT- not trying to haggle over details, but exactly where is the 90' runout? I don't remember anything even close to that. Or were you half joking?

Yeah,the chockstone, from which the old knotted fixed line was dangling, I seem to remember being about 30 feet from the belay, but the bolt and the fixed line made that part protect well for me. If it had been just the bolt it would have been worse for sure. But I thought the real runout to be above the chockstone- easier climbing but no pro at all for awhile directly over a nice ledge...

I did the route in 1996, so I don't have anything to tell you about the new bolt or 2x4's; however, I can tell you this: The initial part of the pitch in question starts with a hard move into an overhanging offwidth/chimney deal, but quickly becomes more secure. At the time there was a tatty fixed line with several knots tied in it hanging down from a chockstone about 20-25 feet above the start of the pitch, to go with a really old looking 1/4 inch bolt. I want to say that a #5 camalot or a big bro would work here, but since I had neither with me on the climb don't take my word for it. You then climb onto the above mentioned chockstone, where you get a rest. Above looms a 5.7 full-on chimney. I don't remember it being all that hard to climb but I do recall that there isn't any protection for awhile-maybe 20-30 feet with the flat top of the chockstone directly below you to land on if you skate here, so don't biff it. If you have any chimney skills at all you'll be fine- it ain't that bad. Above this pitch is a pitch or two of wide, tiring crack climbing. Bring at least 1 #4 camalot. The pitch before the chimney is very cool- airy and little strenuous. Finally, be careful on the first pitch. The rock route out of the moat is often wet, and, although the climbing is fairly easy, protection is thin and infrequent on alternately slabby downsloping rock and decomposing granite. It gets really good after about 80 feet or so. Enjoy, the route is quite a workout.

Dru, I hope I didn't give the wrong impression, I absolutely in no way meant any disrespect to your friend nor was I questioning his decisions or actions. I was using his accident to make a point to someone else in the thread who seemed in my opinion to lack perspective. Some of my closest friends are hardcore skiers and snowboarders, and I myself climb and take tangible risks of my own. My friends and I who recovered David all saw him in the light that it could have just as well been any of us given the risks we all take. And it's strange, too, I bet had he made it down safely, all the naysayers who said "see, look what happens!" would have been saying "wow, that was cool" instead. By the way, he was skiing the ridge on 3 pin gear, which is enough to make most people pucker up thinking about it. He had climbed the ridge the day before from Thumb Rock, while his partners rested, exhausted and altitude sick, and skied it from 13,000'. The same day, I might add, that they had climbed to Thumb Rock from the Carbon. The next day, he and one partner went all the way to Columbia Crest and were returning to Thumb Rock when he had his accident. I heard a lot more about him from his family and the investigation afterwards and he sounded like an incredibly dedicated man. I did also read in some written statements from his partners and an adjacent climbing team that Dave was rather cavalier. Nonetheless, though I never knew him, I get the feeling that Dave probably was doing what he did with his eyes wide open. Unfortunately he paid the ultimate price, one he was obviously prepared to accept. [This message has been edited by W (edited 03-19-2001).]

Hey Philfort, I will answer your question- yes, I have seen the fabled hole. While on a climb of the Central Mowich Face in 1994, I thought I was hallucinating when I looked left and spied this feature. After climbing a few hundred feet further and getting some different aspects, I concluded it to really be a hole in the rock. I'd forgotten all about this! Pretty cool.

Hey Jedi, A common mistake people make on the approach from White river: When crossing lower Curtis Ridge after crossing the Winthrop Glacier- find the 7200 foot elevation and maintain that elevation until you reach the edge of the Carbon Glacier. You will find easy access to the Carbon there, but if you are tempted to contour up and across Curtis Ridge you will find no way to access the Carbon- the margin slope is a huge overhanging cliff of choss above 7200'. Ice conditions on Liberty vary greatly from year to year, and month to month. Even in May, I'd take maybe 4-6 screws and of course some pickets. Don't bother with rock pro. Two tools are nice but one and a standard mountain axe would work. The biggest source of the many rescues on Liberty each year is people being caught on the upper ridge or the summit slopes in severe weather. If there is a lenticular cloud cap, run away! Trying to find the Emmons, and then navigating down it in a whiteout is usually impossible for most. As Mtnclimber wisely points out, extra fuel is a good idea for this very reason- a possible prolonged bivouac at 14,000'. Even if the weather forecast is good. You never know. Have fun.

I did Sloan's west face a long time ago...starting at Bedal Creek in June. The brush on the trail sucks in places but is tame compared to some places I've been. It takes less than 2 hours to reach treeline at which point the terrain is a cruise. The Corkscrew route can be accessed by going over the saddle to the south of the peak to gain the glacier filling the basin below the south face. Wouldn't recommend the west face, btw. The upper half is low angle and will hold snow that currently no doubt will make the 5th class rock sections very wet. Even in summer when it's dry it's an uninteresting climb (mostly 4th class) on less than average quality rock. Nice views though and uncrowded.

I know a lot of people who go out skiing and snowboarding big faces in the Cascades and don't tell many about it. So don't assume anything hasn't been skied or ridden. Especially if you're spraying. Also, the News Tribune article, if we're talking about the same one, was about how no one has tried climbing the Willis Wall routes in 10 years, it said little or nothing about skiing it if I remember. FYI, I was climbing Ptarmigan Ridge in 1995 and watched two guys making figure 8's down Liberty Ridge nearby. And btw Dennis, the first descent of Thermogenesis has been accomplished already, it belongs to David Persson. But I hope you look better after your descent of Thermogenesis than he did; I would know- I'm the one who put him in a body bag. Be careful.