mattp

That would be tomorrow night, Timi, and so far we've got three votes for Blue Star and no other place has more than a mention. As much as I don't really like the Blue Star because it is way too designer-decorated for my taste and I didn't find it very comfortable when we were there before, they do have decent beer and it is relatively central (for north-enders, at least). For next week, the New Orleans sounds OK and who knows, maybe LawGoddeess could drum up support for the Ram or the Dutchess.

Goode is a great climb, but many people have difficulty with the approach, both with getting lost and with battling the brush. The descent, too, can be an issue. You have to decide whether to carry over or to downclimb the route.

In my opinion, Friday is the WORST night of the week to go out. The bars are all packed, everybody is all hyped to get started on the weekend, and you get terrible service. Saturday can be slightly better, but still I find week nights better in most drinking establishments. For lining up partners in advance of a weekend trip, Tuesday is not a bad choice but maybe Wednesday would be better because the weekend forecast would be slightly more reliable by then.

Natural: Yes, I believe we did find a big boulder that matches that description though it was Dan who led the pitch and he would have a better memory of what size Camelot he used there. Also, the finish that we took was not quite the same, I think, as the one that was used by the parties that climbed the route a few days later. The top of the couloir curved somewhat right and I believe they climbed more directly to the summit ridge than we did. As you note, the terrain to the right of what was the more or less obvious line looked steeper, had less ice, and I don't think there was any continuous couloir over there. The "landmarks" in our gully sure seemed to correspond with that drawing in the original article.

After four pages of B.S., I took it upon myself to close the Chair Peak thread. Flame me and then maybe after a few pages of gratuitous insult we can discuss what might be appropriate editorial management of the "route reports" section.

Hot Flashes: Darrington, January 11, 2003 Climber's ripped a tree to bits with a Jimmy during the first winter ascent of a moss-covered 4 thousand foot summit in the North Cascades. 5.6, Bushwack III, hand-to-hand combat 6.

Isn't Climbzalot's opinion just as valuable as an exchange of pointless insults? Yes, inane banter seems to be the norm on this site and nobody should be surprised by that. But that doesn't mean that we can't complain about it once in a while when the banter takes over most of the board outside of the spray section. And here he was calling a bunch of climbers on an entry-level technical winter climb "childish." You spray monkey's ought to appreciate the insult he flung so indiscriminately.

Point taken.

John, I think you may be wrong about the "true" Spindrift couloir. I know that Bart published a "correction" where he redrew the line on his picture and said the Spindrift Couloir was one gully to the right, but when I looked at a copy of the AAJ right after our climb last year I thought that the features shown on that real cool topo pretty much exactly matched what we saw. Maybe I just imagined it into what I thought it was supposed to show and indeed the Spindrift Couloir is one to the right, but maybe not. In the conditions that we found it, the entire climb was pretty firm and there was not much "snow slogging" between ice pitches. The snow climbing on the fluted upper portion of the climb was continously exciting.

Nice one, Dru. But I think winter climbing IS fun and I kind of like Devil's club (even though I, too, had to pull some thorns out of my hands yesterday). Congratulations on what sounds like a fine outing.

Erik- That would probably be a good time to go there. The boulder field below the face might still be covered with snow so there would be a place to keep our beers cold and the daylight would be long. If we properly medicate, I am sure we can avoid going too psycho.

On Saturday, I climbed Exfoliation Dome with a couple of my friends who are DTown regulars. We climbed the "avoid the west slabs route" and, although it wasn't exactly in prime condition, we had a pretty good day. The road in there was driveable in a normal car all the way to the roadfork at five miles from the Mountain Loop highway, and on the left fork about 200 yards beyond the bridge over Clear Creek. Although the Granite Sidewalk was frosty, there really wasn't any snow until about 3,300 feet and it was only patchy at that elevation although there was a pile of frozen avalanche debris below the West Slabs. We may have made the first winter ascent of the dome, though it wasn't a climb under full-on winter conditions. press here for the full story

Brian - That is a very exciting route report! I have not climbed on the Witch Doctor side of the dome although I have been over to look from the groud, and it looks WAY cool but all my friends who have climbed over there said that, when you actually climb something, it is DIRTY. Let me know if you ever want to go back. -Matt

John- I was up there last weekend and it appeared to me that you could probably have climbed the slabs on the right without encountering too much technical difficulty. It looked like a lot of wet rock, but It apeared that there was a way through it with no more than very short sections of 25 degree rock between large ledges and the shortest part of it was no more than a couple hundred feet high. However, a friend of mine has bolted a route that he says is 5.10 in that area, so perhaps my "from the ground" analysis was incorrect. Also, the passage right next to the main waterfall that you and I rejected as too dangerous when we were there looked to be a reasonable option -- on that day. If the upper part of the face appeared to be in shape and one of these options didn't look good, I'd be willing to fight my way up the bush to the far right and I'd be interested in going back there with you. I'm not kidding - I think Big Four is cool. -Matt

Fromage- I would delete Buckner from your list and add Shuksan. Although one of the highest Cascade peaks and fairly easy (technically), Buckner has a slightly gnarly approach to the standard route that I have not done but which I believe to be not all that exciting while Shuksan (via either Lake Anne to the Fischer Chimney's route or the cross country "trail" to the Sulphide) is just as high (maybe 30 feet higher ?), heavily glaciated, and about as scenic as it gets. A climb of Shucksan includes glaciers travel and a rock pyramid at the summit, and it is more distant from surrounding peaks. Indeed, in my opinion Shuksan is one of the most beautiful peaks in the State. I am assuming that you are asking about relatively non-technical ascents, and both of these routes on Shuksan would fit the bill. I would not overlook Mount Baker, either. Though a volcano (volcano's may not be seen as classic Cascade peaks), it has an easy approach to either the Coleman Glacier route or the Easton Glacier route, and it is way scenic.

Yo PP- I read the New York Times today, scanning for possible liberal bias. What I saw was lots of news, that I couldn't really tell was either liberal or conservative, and there was a big story about how G.W. Bush was getting serious about corporate fraud and was seeking increased funding for the Securities Exchange Commission. And there was one article, pure propaganda, about a meeting wherein G.W. met with some Iraqui opposition leaders and assured them that we were going to set up a democracy after we are through taking over their country. In light of the fact that everybody who has commented on the slim-to-non-existent prospects for our being able to set up a democracy in Iraq (including Bush administritation war-planners), I thought the article was bordering on rediculous -- but the Bush "party line" went unquestionned. In all fairness, I should point out that in section 7 there was a book review of a book that's theisis was that G.W. Bush and his pals were evil. Is this the liberal press that you oh so complain about? By the way, I am still waiting for you to explain how the story about the flap at August country club was proof of bias. Even if it will take two or three sentences, I am sure you are up to the task of explaining how such and obvious example of bias should be interpreted.

Yeah, and I hear it's "not in," too.

Cracked - the buttress can be less technical than the N. Face, but I bet that it was more technical than the N. Face when Ray climbed it a couple weeks ago. Now? I don't know. I haven't been up there for a year or two.

That's easy. Just head up there and look around. That N. Face of Chair is pretty good because it is overall a simple and barely technical line up a somewhat imposing face, but all you have to do is head up there and pick a gully and start climbing and I am sure you will find something. Bring a pair of binoculars and scope it out as best you can, and then be prepared to find out that you may have made a bad choice. But it is really that easy. With recent warm temps, there may not be a lot of ice but there will certainly be a lot of steep snow climbs that could provide plenty of entertainment and I am sure it is there too if ice is what you want.

PP- I might go for your "pot calling the kettle black" analogy, except that early in the thread, I DID provide examples of stories that I thought were slanted and I stated in what manner it was that I thought they were slanted. Nobody, including yourself, has asked for any further discussion of these examples. You, on the other hand, thrust three "examples" but are too busy to explain how they exemplify anything. I agree that my review of the web page headlines the last two days is certainly not proof of anything but I believe it is illustrative of the point that, on the surface at least, there is no obvious bias in the last couple days' headlines. Again, PP, do you mind fillin me in on how the Augusta story proves ANYTHING? You apparently have the answer to this question, and I would guess that it would not take more than a single sentence to describe your reasoning, but you are utterly unwilling to disclose it.

PP- You can do better than that, honestly. If you are going to make an argument - go ahead and make it. For example, how is it that the story about a flap over a golf tournament at an all-men's country club shows that the NYT or the press-at-large is biassed? Your "examples" are flung out without any explanation just like Mtn Goat's (weren't they his?) pointing to gun control and taxes - without any explanation of how an actual news story was slanted. Again I will note that I conceded that you may be right about these stories, but you have failed to make your point. And once again you say you are too busy to do so in the same breadth as you fling the condescending dismissal of my attempt at reasoned discussion. And, by the way, you had an opportunity to share a with me and you stood us up.

Trask - Maybe I should preemptively put Mtn Goat on my buddy list? RobBob - Personally, I find NPR rather disappointing. All that smart-ass liberal banter is simply that -- just like the crap on the right-wing radio stations. And the news? There has been little coverage about the suffering in Iraq that follows our bombing or results from the sanctions, there has been little follow up on what is happening in Afghanistan now -- and nothing about the recent pipeline deal that may have been the real reason for that war in the first place. There are commentaries about how Bush's tax cut will favor the rich, yes, but the presentation of the news just does not satisfy THIS liberal. Never-the-less, for the sake of this discussion I am willing to concede that NPR has a liberal slant to it (I just think it is lame).

Good morning again, campers. N Y TIMES HEADLINES Today, America's "liberal" flag bearer, the New York Times, carries headlines critical of Iraq and of Korea, and has one that says the US has asked that a judge to deny a terror suspect access to a lawyer because it could harm the interrogation. Other headlines say the US economy is dissapointing, and that stocks are up. It says Nuclear plant emergency plans are inadequate, that the US is suing Tnet over medicare billing and threatening the Europeans over some issue related to modified plans. The Senate has passed a stopgap finance bill. The only headline that mentions the administration directly states that "Bush Says Tax Proposal Will Be Fair for All Incomes." I detect no liberal bias though of course I do not know what ACTUALLY happened yesterday. NY TIMES EDITORIALS The editorial page, as usual, is tilted in favor of the administration if anything. Of eight listed, it has one saying that Bush's tax proposal is right on, one saying that some of the conservatives who support Bush are against condom use and this undermines the battle against aids, one saying the quest to disarm Iraq must not fail but peaceful alternatives must first be exhausted, one saying the detention of enemy combatants without giving them a lawyer is "disturbing," one saying that congress "finally" helped the jobless, one saying that police should videotape confessions, one saying that black's enjoyment of freedoms is resented by Afrikaners, and one saying New York City workers should reject a contract. PP AND MTN GOAT CITE NO EXAMPLES OF LIBERAL PRESS At risk of engaging the likes of PP and MtnG again, I will note that they still have failed to show how the mainstream TV or newspaper press has a liberal bias. I am willing to admit that one could argue that NPR is liberal oriented, though I would argue that the conservative talk shows at least counterbalance it if not vastly outweigh it. But newspapers and TV? I have been looking for news that will counterbalance the Administration's propoganda for the last year and I just can't find it. Mtn. Goat has not put forth any specific example of a liberal bias, and PP cites three examples of how the NY Times is liberal-slanted, but did not even bother to argue that any TV station consistently slants things to the left. PP's examples just don't do it for me because he has failed to state whether, in the case of the "economy grew at 3.1%, slower than expected" the "slant" was liberal or conservative or whether the real news story was the figure itself or the fact that greater growth had been predicted or relied upon. PP's second example, that the NYT printed an op-ed written by a U.S. diplomat who had a direct stake in the matter he wrote about but failed to state his background, again does not convince me of anything. PP has not stated whether this failure to reveal background aided a liberal or conservative view of the matter, and he has not addressed the question of whether such "disclosure" appears in other op-ed pieces, such as the one written by George Mitchell two days ago. And then there is the "Augusta fiasco." PP has not stated how the NYT coverage of this matter may have shown liberal bias; he seems to assert, rather, that the mere fact that the story existed is evidence of that bias. THE LIBERAL PRESS IS A MYTH. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Wotan was up to 8,000' above VanTrump yesterday, and said the snow was "good but not corn" (in advance, he had thought they might find corn).