mattp

I do a lot of ski-mountaineering. More than once, I've skied up the lower slopes of Rainier and Hood and then carried my skis down because of a breakable wind crust which I was just too tired to deal with. For the overall easiest trip, I'd say wait for a time when it will be hardpack and walk. If you want to ski down Mount Raininer, that is quite another thing - but it generally won't be "easier" or safer than walking.

I don't like snowmobiles either. Its just that I think there are other ways to deal with it than bitch about how noisy, smelly etc. they are and brand them all as ignorant motorheads. I know that none of you have said this, but I frequently hear that idea expressed by cross country skiers and others of our persuasion and the attitude I saw expressed by Catibird in his initial post to this thread sounds as if he may well share that idea. Regarding Mount Saint Helens: Yes, I think it is a shame they don't seem to be able to follow the rules there and I would certainly favor stricter law enforcement (they aren't supposed to be able to go above timberline, isn't that right?). I also agree that they are noisy, smelly machines and I don't like to be near them -- that is one reason why I don't go to Mount Saint Helens very often -- or any other trailhead that happens to be a snowmobile unloading point for that matter. However, as to the real mountain areas of the State, not much is open to snowmobiling. Regarding Volcano's: Of the volcano's in Washington, why not go to Mount Rainier, or Glacier Peak? Yes, I know they have been seen on Adams, though not very often, so I don't mention this one. But I don't think you will ever even hear one from Glacier Peak or Rainier, and you won't share even one foot of the trail with them. On Mount Baker, I know they occasionally stray over to the Coleman Glacier, but they mostly stay where they are supposed to be - in that pie-shaped slice of the south side of the mountain. Climb via the Coleman Glacier, a beautiful winter and spring route, and you'll leave them behind as soon as you leave the summer trailhead (this may involve some distance of shared access). Regarding other areas: If you want to ski roadside areas at Snoqualmie Pass, you can head up Denny Creek, Alpental Basin, or up into Commonwealth Basin and you won't be bothered, but if you head up Gold Creek or Rocky Run, well .... bring your earplugs. Stevens Pass? Head up Skyline Ridge, Jim Hill Mtn. or Arrowhead or Mount Howard - I've never seen or heard them in those places. If you go up Smith Brook, you may find one that came over from Lake Wenatchee, but usually not. N. Cascades? Don't go to Washington Pass or to any of the areas close to Baker Lake. Just about the entire rest of the N. Cascades is fine. Mountain Loop Highway? They unload at the same place as you start out on skis when the road is blocked at Deer Creek, so it may be hard to get away from them -- that is unless you head up any of a dozen side creeks that don't have roads. On the north end of the loop, I didn't hear any noise when I was up on Sloan Peak on a beautiful day in February last winter - and we were only about a couple miles from the car via a quite reasonable trail. Yes, they stink. Yes, they have an obnoxious lobby and an unreasonable pull when it comes to Jellystone National Park policy or whatever. Yes, they should be required to use 4 stroke engines. Do they ruin my life in the mountains? No.

In my opinion, it is just about as easy to walk up to the Mountaineer Creek trailhead as to take a snowmobile up there - even with a pack. The road is packed just about all winter and by the time you mess with the snowmobile trailer and loading/unloading the sled, you could walk half way up there. Take skis so you can ride down.

Kassidy - This pathetic game of hiding behind a new avatar and pretending to be outraged when somebody accuses you of being Dwayner is just that - pathetic. As is being said here - if you want to identify yourself, you can. I don't think anybody is ever harassed or otherwise abused for identifying who they are on this bulletin board. I'm not sure they have ever been. Meanwhile, if you want to play games about who your are, you have absolutely nothing to complain about in this matter of being falsely accused of being the widely regarded Dwayner who so many people respect and appreciate.

JKassidy - Did you climb Mount Rainier in the winter in the '70's? The checkout process took over an hour. Did you go to the Climber's ranch in the '70's -- during the climbing season there wasn't even room to pull into the parking lot. At the same time, there were permits required, zone restrictions, and all kinds of regulations to comply with in the Tetons. Did you wait in line to climb The Nose in 1979? It took three days. Did you visit the 'Gunks in 1970? Parking was terrible AND YOU HAD TO BUY A CLIMBING PERMIT. These magical days before sport climbing when there were no crowds and no permit problems did not exist - at least not in your climbing lifetime or mine. There are more cars in I-5 during rush hour now, and you have to have a zone permit to park in the Capitol Hill neighborhood. Are you going to blame that on sport climbing, too?

In addition to suffering from myopia, is reading comprehension a problem for you, too? I noted that I think Indext Town Wall is probably less crowded now than in 1985 or whatever, nowhere did I argue that "climbing areas/camping areas are probably less crowded than they were and that we are currently dealing with a less restrictive permit system." If you want to make any kind of argument that has any meaning at all, you gotta do better than that.

I don't really know where you're coming from there, Catbird. I have very rarely had any problem with snowmobilers and I've rarely heard of anybody else having one. Yes, if you go over to Lake Wenatchee and want to have a logging road to yourself you will be out of luck and you will encounter them on the south side of Mount Baker once in a while, but overall I've found them to be very easy to avoid and those that I do encounter are usually (not always) considerate. I'd say they are not my kind of thing but I don't begrudge them their fun....

In the runup to this war, it seems to me that we heard more realistic and honest assessments of the situation from the Joint Chief's of Staff than we did from the White House. I guess I'm one of those people in the Harper's survey. I don't understand where AT is coming from when he says it has become "uncool" to pay respect to the military. I'd say that it has become uncool, if anything, to pay disrespect to the military.

While I have the rampant mistrust for all things warlike that AT refers to, I'd have to say that I also have a great respect and appreciation for those who have served in America's military. Maybe I need a history lesson, but "Rememberence Day" and "Veteran's Day" are not so fundamentally different in my mind -- I think about the wars we have fought, and in particular about the service of those who survived and died in those wars, as well as the non-war overseas assignments completed by our military personnel, and I am at once respectful and appreciative. As one who has never served and almost certainly never will, I don't have to support every specific war effort in order to value the service that has been provided by those who do. I'm not saying that "Veteran's Day" and "Remembrance Day" dont' have a different overall tone and message -- I'm saying that, for me - when I really think about it - the celebration and remembrance of those who died, and the dread of war, is not all that far removed from a respect and appreciation for those who lived or are living through a current one.

Ken Ford mentions "Henry" - I'd second that for being one messed up film! By the end of it, I actually thought Henry was a good guy compared to his buddy! For psycho weirdness, I'd say "Repulsion" by Roman Polanski is a under recognized bit of genious. It'll creep you out for sure.

If you operate under the assumption that the only thing that matters is whether or not something has been bolted, you will find the evidence you seek. No argument there. Otherwise the only concrete "on-the-ground" difference you cited was increased crowding in the N. Cascades. As far as overall environmental damage caused by hoards of climbers, I'm not sure the North Cascades as a whole or the Enchantments or most other areas around the state are in fact all that much worse off than they were 25 years ago. For example, there are fewer stomped out areas in the upper Enchantments now, I think, and the old climber's trail up the creek below the North side of Sherpa and Mount Stuart may have been more obvious in 1980 because recent trends have been to approach Stuart via Ingalls Lake. Some trails are more hammered by climbers who follow Jim Nelson's list of "select climbs" (example Black Peak) but other areas have been largely abandoned as some of the old logging roads hav been gated or washed away and some old trails have fallen into disrepair. The net effect is almost certainly that there are more climber impacted areas in the Washington wilderness, but it is not as if it is a whole new issue or a whole new level of magnitude. Nobody or almost nobody hacks at the trees to have a campfire at a subalpine lake anymore -- and they definitely DID do that in 1975. As to crowding itself, it is true there are more people out there now -- there are more people living in the Puget Sound region and correspondingly there are more people in and out of town. But I encountered three other parties on the West Ridge of Forbidden Peak when I was there in July, 1981, and one of those parties was a group of 16 climbers from Simon Frasier University and one of them tied their dog at the base of the couloir like it was a sport climb so we had to listen to their hound bark all day -- I doubt there was a more busy day up there this season. Index probably had MORE climbers on any given day in the summer of 1980 than it does now. The west side of Mount Rainier has become wilder while Liberty Ridge has probably seen three times as much traffic. Exit 38 has a lot of climbers, but does that really bother you? As to the lack of courage or conviction or proper Dwayner approved values that you complain about, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Yes, I'd agree that there are places with too many bolts but if your idea of a bold and respectable ascent was some runout deathfest like the Bachar Yarian and you think that is better than a modern route like "Crying Time," which has perhaps as many as ten times the number of bolts on very similar terrain, so be it. (I haven't done either route, so I can't say for sure, but I bet most of the rest of us would use the word "dubious" to describe the Bachar Yarian, not Crying Time). Few of the rock climbs you used to enjoy in Washington in 1975 have had any new pro bolts added (for rappel stations, I believe bolts with chains are more desirable than heaps of slings on bushes and flakes though I am sure you will disagree), and I bet the number of alpine routes that have been soiled as you so decry is even less. Yes, people take cell phones with them in the mountains these days and people who learn to climb at the gym have different expecations and goals than those who cut their teeth on Mt. Cruiser. But read the route reports on this bulletin board sometime and you will see: mountain climbing and adventure rock climbing are alive and well.

I don't think anybody said that climbing was categorically BETTER than it was in the great golden ages that you celebrate, but you said it had categorically gotten WORSE.

Take haert, Minx. After a brief rise to 10,000 feet, the freezing level is going back down and the North Face is going to start shaping up --- SOON.

Erik- I think you too will readily call one form of climbing or one particular climber better or more worthy than another. You argue here in this thread that "it is all good," but if somebody does or says something you perceive as silly or misguided you have no problem mentioning that fact. Cassidy overstates his case, me thinks, if he says it is horribly more crowded in the Cascades these days than back in the golden age of 1978. I also believe he is some kind of nostalgia freak when he suggests that the climber's tactics or goals of yore were any less "dubious" than those of today, but there are some differences in approach today and many of today's climbers are indeed less concerned over the impact of such things as bolting, and many are not as bold when it comes to going somewhere without a satellite phone or bivvy gear. Yes, he ought to get out climbing more and he might see that there are some good things about what is going on - even at his biggest nightmare of a crag Vantage - but like ChrisT said: lighten up (at least until he starts into the "you are all pussies" tirade). I think it's more fun to debate the ideas than to call folks names.

Dwayner lives.

Cassidy- I don't know when you started climbing - back in the days when Jedediah Smith first went to Smith Rock, perhaps, but crowds have always been a part of climbing as long as I can remember. Parking at the Gunks was a big problem in 1970. The Climber's Ranch in the Tetons was probably more crowded in the mid '70's than now. Camp 4 in the Valley was also a busy place by the mid ‘70's and you had to "take a number" and wait three days to get onto the Nose route. Yes, there are more climbers now, but they all go to Exit 38 and to Vantage, places where you don't want to go anyway. Enhancing the wilderness? When I was a young pup I camped in shelters that were built all along the Appalacian Trail in the 1940's. The hut at the Bugaboos was built in 1970 or so. Bolt ladders first started appearing in Yosemite when???? Hell - it was David Brower who used bolts and other iron hardward to climb Shiprock in - what was it - the late '40's? Permits and Fees? As long as I've been climbing, these were a part of the climbing experience. The Tetons had climbing permit requirements by the 1960's, I think, and it was even more difficult to get a permit to climb Mount Rainier in the winter in the '70's than it is now -- you had to show up during office hours so they could inspect your gear. The Enchantments permits started when - late ‘70's? Park entrance fees have been collected as long as I can remember. Yes, there are now a new set of fees for parking on logging roads, and Mount Rainier now collects a "rescue fee," but you know what? The major problem that I have with those programs is that they are singling out climbers and hikers to pay fees rather than placing the burden equally on all users and abusers of the park or forest lands. I also believe believe public lands should be maintained for public use (recreational visits are something I think are public use) rather than private profit (e.g. resource extractive industries that are subsidized by the government). More climbers, and specifically more climbers willing to organize and engage in political activities, could be a GOOD thing here. Dubious mountaineering goals? Is it any more "dubious" for Distel to climb some heinous boulder problem using only his shoes and a chalk bag than it was for some Yosemite Valley hardman to spend over 100 days fixing ropes, pounding stove legs into cracks, drilling holes, and dragging a cart up and down El Capitan? Or for expeditions using literally hundreds of porters to carry a military-style expedition to Everest Base and for high altitude sherpas to virtually drag our heroes of yore to the top of the mountain so they could claim the first ascent or the first American ascent or whatever? Guided trips on Everest? So what. I have no issue with that, and I'd also say that back in the historic "golden age" of himalayan climbing it was the old boy's network that got you on an expetition - not talent or drive - and I'm not sure that aspect of the situation is really that different except, perhaps, the "old boys" in the American Alpine Clubhouse in Manhattan have been replaced by advertising folks who work for the North Face. Yes, times have changed and it is not all for the better. But I think you should get out more, and you might find that the world is still OK out there. Really - not all that much has changed. Climbers are having fun, and some of them care about environmental issues or stylistic matters that you believe in while others don't.

Way better than early season ice, is late season brush:

Right on, Forrest. I generally stay away from these "fallen heroes" threads but Mr. Manfredi was indeed the impressive outdoorsman that he was for the exact reason that you stated: he was out there for the right reason -- because he loved being out there. His enthusiasm was obvious and he seemed equally able to appreciate and laud other people's accomplishments as his own; never once did I get the idea that he was taking risks in order to show off or impress other people.

Actually, I was trying to make a simple point: a SRENE anchor system built by somebody who doesn't know how to place gear is a serious hazard. I think the order of the terms referred to in the "SRENE" acronym is illustrative of what I am talking about: the first point in "SRENE" is "strong." In setting a belay, I look for a location where I can get a bomber piece of gear first, then I look for a way to get redundancy, then I look at how to equalize them, and the use of "no extension" is a good idea but again, of even lesser import. Do you REALLY disagree with my simple statement that strength is the most important attribute in a belay anchor? I did not say, imply, or hint that - unless you select some part of my argument and take it out of context. I said, repeatedly, that building redundant equalized anchors is a very important skill, but that even more important is knowing how to place good nuts and cams in the first place.

Most of the new climbers I meet are pretty cool, and I have no problem with the fact that there are more climbers today than there were thirty years ago. The larger market means that the gear has come a long way, and the with the media attention and crowds, we are seeing some real cool parks like Smith that are being run like Disneyland for climbers. The increased athleticism that has been brought about by gym climbing, too, has led me to think more seriously about training and technique, and this has helped me enjoy the sport (though I mostly think about training but don't do it). Yes, it is not all good and I share some of the sense of loss about the old days when Smith was relatively pristine and there were only a dozen bolts on the entire Salathe Wall - but I'll take the good with the bad.

Murray, you apparently suffer from the same reading comprehension problem that I accused Lammy of. I did not say one need not learn to build a proper anchor, nor did I say that one should not address that subject of belay anchors until AFTER they know how to place gear, and I did not advocate teaching your students that "a single SLCD is an acceptable anchor, backed up." We're talking about emphasis here, and I believe it is indeed putting the cart before the horse to teach someone how to sling pieces together and equalize them before they know how to place those pieces in the first place. As has been stated by others in this thread: yes, they may learn how to tie a doorknob to a chair leg and equalize it, but what use is that in the real world of the crag? In addition to reading comprehension, you may need to brush up on logic: where I said emphasizing anchor construction before placement of anchors would be putting the cart before the horse, I was not necessarily saying that one cannot learn anything about anchor construction before they are an expert in placement of gear. And indeed, slinging doorknobs to chairs is kind of fun. You are correct that an instructor needs to present the "right" way of doing things and that it takes experience for a climber to learn where they can "cut the margin." I would always show any beginner how to equalize their anchors and I'd suggest that they ought to learn how to build a SRENE anchor before they head up a multipitch route. But I'd also tell them there is no mystery about it. Put in two or preferably three pieces, sling them together so that all two or three slings are snug and pointing in roughly the direction of an anticipated downward pull, and converge right at your waist when you sit down. If at all possible, set an anchor so that you are tied down to the belay ledge as well. On any popular beginners' rock climb that I know of , that is truly all you need to do. And Schlanschmecker is right: much more important is for them to get in the habit of picking a belay ledge that is big and roomy and where they aren't going to be pulled off the edge if there is an extra 6" of stretch in their chain. But again, where I say "A is not true" I am not necessarily saying that "not A is true." Where I say it is imbalanced to tell new climbers that they have to attend multiple anchor-building clinics and read John Long's book and practice building mock anchors on the ground and analyze them for days before they can lead - IF THEY KNOW HOW TO PLACE SOLID GEAR - I am NOT saying that you can't teach them what a SRENE anchor is until they can pass Mattp's test for gear placement acceptability. The reason I think this is an important point is that I see lots of new climbers who build elaborate SRENE anchor set ups when they are belaying off of three 3/8" brand new bolts. Just this past weekend, I saw where someone didn't feel safe with two brand new bolts on a slab, but ran an extra eight feet of bright colored webbing up to the first pro bolt on the pitch above so that they could safely rappel. WTF? I have a buddy who spends twenty minutes at every belay, clipping and reclipping and analyzing the thing before he can belay me up a 5.4 pitch when he is sitting next to a 6" tree. And I've seen way too many beginners at Castle Rock who have read the speed climbing tips in Climbing Magazine and who pass right by the belay ledge because they want to climb to the end of their 60 meter rope, and then set some rediculous hanging belay from three pieces put in the sand behind a pile of loose blocks. The guy who hangs in space from three pieces of choss is probably the same guy who thought they had to leave eight feet of bright colored webbing behind because he's been taught about SRENE but he doesn't know what a strong gear placement looks like. Learning to place solid gear is key - and far more important than learning to build some beautiful macrame. I'm not "in the mainstream" as you put it, and I disagree with a lot of what the "mainstream" has to say on many things. I wear cotton in the mountains, and I in fact would advocate learning to trad climb before going to the gym (I believe climbers learn some bad habits using the gris gris and learning to pull on overhanging plastic). Again, I can hear the alarms going off in your head because you may think I am saying that you should tell your students not to wear anything but cotton in the mountains or that you should not let them go to the gym: I'm not. I realize there are many different means to the same ends. As to my interpretation of the premise of the initial post, I think I interpreted it correctly: you said that you thought the fact that SLCD's can pivot makes them less trustworthy for an anchor. when you wrote that "I believe the problem is not with Camalots, rather with rigging any primary anchor only with SLCD's. Because SLCD's can pivot under a shockload, I have always been terrified of rigging a anchor exclusively from said units." In my opinion, the ability of an SLCD to pivot and still hold securely is exactly the reason why they are preferable in some situations. Like others, I like "bomber" nut placements because they are as strong as the rock itself and not reliant upon springs at all, but SLCD's have their advantages and one of them is that in average placements they are more omnidirectional than a nut.

I'm waiting for Colin's trip report.

Serious Nelly! It is NUTS to think that the defense contractors or the energy industry or anybody from Halliburton had anything to do with all of this, either. Only a true conspiracy theory freak would think our government officials would make decisions and award lucrative contracts that would benefit their friends and former employers.

ChucK - I believe that I WOULD travel to Indonesia at this point in time, though I haven't read the latest State Department warnings. If you travel as a backpacker, staying in low-end cabana's that are perfectly nice, I bet you wouldn't have any worry of a problem. When I was in Thailand, they warned us NOT to take first-class busses and trains because these get robbed more often and the fancier resorts, too, are much more of a target for terrorists or kidnappers.

Peter- Every time one of us evil liberals talks about what crooks we have in the White House, we are told "the dems are just as bad." You may be right about that, and I'd have to agree that the Democratic politicos are a cynnical and self-serving bunch as well - though I think Bush and Co. have taken it to a whole new height of unabashed looting. However, the title of your thread "since you lefties keep bringing up Clinton?????" Isn't it the right wing commentators and right-of-center politicians who keep harping on how all of our current problems are Clinton's fault and isn't Hillary a bitch and so on? I don't think it is the "lefties" who keep bringing up Clinton.