Dosewallips River Road repair - New EIS Released

[faster_than_you]

From Jan. 11, 2003 Seattle Times:

 

Manning said his friendship with Spring ended over the summer.

 

"Ira and I were friends for nearly half a century, but not anymore," he said. "He's gone his own way. He's now a trail promoter, not an environmentalist."

 

Manning's comment poorly represent enviros. A "trail promoter" doesn't mean that someone is not an environmentalist. Claiming the title of "environmentalist" while casting aside everyone else who feels and believes differently about access and the environment is short sided and counterproductive.

 

I don't buy the argument that reopening the road (even if they have to rebuild it up on the hillside) will REALLY destroy or adversely affect the valley, river, trees, habitat, etc permanently. They built the road before and things OBVIOUSLY turned out fine with regard to habitat, vegetation, and wildlife. SO I'm pretty darn sure that it can be done again. And in 30-50-100 years, everyone will be thankful that they had the access... except for maybe a few exclusionary "enviros" like johndavidjr and Manning.

 

[johndavidjr]

The South Early Winters Spire bolt issue may be more interesting.

 

But Havey Manning was certainly known for taking a very long view.

 

Contrary to above post, quite obviously, Manning was extremely productive and influential many decades, with regard to both the development of Northwest climbing and wilderness preservation.

 

He left a very important legacy in this regard, and there is no doubt what he believed about stuff like the Dose project.

 

Ira Spring, whatever his various achievements, was considerably less accomplished in these particular areas.

 

[Fairweather]

From Jan. 11, 2003 Seattle Times:

 

Manning said his friendship with Spring ended over the summer.

 

"Ira and I were friends for nearly half a century, but not anymore," he said. "He's gone his own way. He's now a trail promoter, not an environmentalist."

 

Manning's comment poorly represent enviros. A "trail promoter" doesn't mean that someone is not an environmentalist. Claiming the title of "environmentalist" while casting aside everyone else who feels and believes differently about access and the environment is short sided and counterproductive.

 

I don't buy the argument that reopening the road (even if they have to rebuild it up on the hillside) will REALLY destroy or adversely affect the valley, river, trees, habitat, etc permanently. They built the road before and things OBVIOUSLY turned out fine with regard to habitat, vegetation, and wildlife. SO I'm pretty darn sure that it can be done again. And in 30-50-100 years, everyone will be thankful that they had the access... except for maybe a few exclusionary "enviros" like johndavidjr and Manning.

 

I can't imagine someone throwing away a fifty year friendship-- and all those years of family mountain adventures--like Harvey Manning did. How sad. Manning became the epitome of radicalized bitterness.

 

Ira Spring's legacy will remain great for centuries to come. When I sit outside my tent on a late chill evening, and hear the wind blow through a grove of alpine fir, I think of his stories and pictures and how they inspired me in my life--I can almost hear his soul--still alive and well on a warm flower-strewn meadow summer afternoon only a moment ago.

[johndavidjr]

It's Manning's writings for the most part, that you remember Fairweather.

 

Did you ever read Manning's "Walking the Beach To Bellingham?" What a searing personal memoir, mixed with amazing history of the Puget Sound dating back to the 1930s. Spring never produced anything remotely like this.

 

Perhaps you recall Manning's editions of "Freedom?" People joke about this book, but Manning shaped it into what it is today, working with dozens of people like Fred Beckey and Willi Unsoled and god knows who else.

 

Most of that exact prose survived in subsequent editions, the majority through Peggy Flemming and much into Don Graydon's editing. Manning's general plan for the book continues unchanged in current editions.

 

Manning's definition of Northwest "wilderness mountaineering" as something unique, as expressed in his "Freedom," made a deep impression on two or three generations of young climbers, and certainly continues to exert its somewhat profound influence.

 

How about Manning's important work toward establishing the North Cascades National Park? Certainly the "locals" in Whatcomb County absolutely hated this concept. Think it was a Texan who actually signed off on the place. Is that better than the various New Yorkers who created ONP (with zero support in virtous Washington State at the time)?

 

A biography of Manning might even be worth publishing. Not so sure about Ira Spring. I guess Spring took some nice Kodachromes and climbed some hills. But haven't we all?

 

[RodF]

There is a serious philosophical discussion to be had: should we withdraw roads, campgrounds and Ranger Stations from backcountry locations in order to make our wildernesses deeper?

 

How do we replace these facilities? Where will the funds to decommission roads, demolish facilities and build replacements be found? Or should we simply not have campgrounds, or high country accessible within a weekend climb or hike, and just keep most people out?

 

And it's not just the Dose, the same groups advocate closing the Mountain Loop Highway, the Suiattle, the White Chuck, most entrances to Olympic Nat'l Park, and lament the North Cascades Highway, the Stehekin Road, the Quinault, etc were ever built.

 

I've pondered posting a poll on this philosophical question... but we've already conducted a real-world poll for 5 years on this one. 71% of backcountry visitors to the Dosewallips have voted with their feet to go elsewhere. And I know where - Lena Lakes, Upper Big Quilcene/Camp Mystery, Staircase - and I've seen the consequences - alpine vegetation dug up and trampled, feces and toilet paper scattered about even right on stream banks and lake shores (and I've cleaned it up, bagged it, and packed it out more than once, uggh) - while the backcountry Dose campgrounds (eight of which have latrines!) lie abandoned, the fire rings and tent sites still carpeted with the last winter's windthrown branches even at the end of the season.

 

Our National Parks and Forests don't even have the funds to install new backcountry latrines where they are desperately needed, let alone build new frontcountry campgrounds if we abandon those we have now.

 

And what of the environmental issues? The Dose Road will be rerouted hundreds of feet away from the river, so it does not affect salmon. It is technically "potential" spotted owl habitat - but they've been entirely displaced from Puget lowlands by barred owls - and marbled murrelet habitat - but they aren't found there. The only issue is 20 to 24 trees that are over 36 inches in diameter, and might be termed old growth (most of the Dose re-route was logged 50 years ago). Reopening the Suiattle Road will cut almost twice as many trees of that size, all in Late Successional and Riparian Reserve, so should be twice as objectionable.

 

There is a serious philosophical discussion to be had, but it is not to be had with those who avoid the real questions it raises, and can only descend into petty personal attacks against anyone who raises them, even the most venerable Ira Spring. -sigh-

 

Is it a "left brain/right brain", analytical vs emotional, problem? People do talk past each other, but in the end, we still must to deal with the real world as it actually is, if we are to have any hope of making it better.

[johndavidjr]

So, RodF, I gather you don't know or care about Harvey Manning's contribution to northwest mountaineering.

 

It's a matter of record that you never post on Cascade Climber except about having the Federal Government hire heavy construction equipment to build a 5-mile road on the Dose, and this apparently in reference to the "local economy" which is mainly a tiny collection of vacation and retirement bungalows with inadequate septic tanks that are apparently wrecking Hood Canal.

 

Explain your peculiar and exclusive interest in this subject? Do you have a special focus on climbing Constance or Anderson?

 

Can you post some trip reports or otherwise contribute? I'd be all ears.

 

 

[Fairweather]

Hey John, what is your issue? RodF has given thoughtful response and been more than respectful, yet you continue to sling mud and question motives. Maybe it's time you gave it a rest?

[RodF]

johndavidjr, I treasure Harvey Manning's memory... but despite his ability to write with wit, depth and feeling about anything he cared about, to my knowledge, he had nothing to say about the Dosewallips Road. Ira Spring did.

 

I am more of a hiker than a climber. I am not a resident of Brinnon and know nothing about its local economy. But this forum is not about me, or you.

 

This is a public issue, relevant to National Park access for climbers and hikers. If you feel this topic is in any way inappropriate here, please contact the forum moderators. I expect they would clarify to you that this forum is for access issues, not personal attacks and misdirection.

[Off_White]

John, Rod has been more than polite, and sticking to the topic at hand. Please give the slurs and assumptions a rest, it's inappropriate here.

 

Please make your case regarding why you think the road should not be repaired without resorting to slander, whether it's Rod or Ira Spring who is your target. I assure you such tactics are not persuasive.

[Drederek]

I think the road is fine like it is. Its nice to be able to easily get somewhere thats not so crowded. I'm hardly an elite climber yet I managed to climb Constance in a day. Without the road after the washout I never would have tried. It was a lot of fun coasting downhill the last 5 miles of the day.

[Joe Friday]

Ira Spring contributed a lot more than a few Kodakchromes. Spring was on dozens of committees that were instrumental in getting our Wilderness areas in place, that ousted dams, mining and logging, and rules and laws that hold the Forest Service, DNR and other public agencies accountable for their practices on the land. Both men drummed up interest via their guidebooks. Both played a huge part in what we have today. Look on rosters of old committee members and attendees of meetings in the 60's to the day he died; Spring was on many of them.

 

The Spring Family Trust is listed in a lot of current outdoors-related funded programs. Anyone who reads about past issues past would certainly come across Ira Spring's name, and anyone who currently attends meetings, reads about current issues would certainly come across the name, The Spring Family Trust.

 

Ignorance of Spring's contributions is an odd error in johnjohn's research of the history of recreation in Washington. I don't know how that could have been missed.

Edited July 20, 2008 by Joe Friday

[johndavidjr]

Other than to contrast him with Manning, I didn't mean to say much about Spring at all.

 

 

Edited July 25, 2008 by johndavidjr

[mike1]

I think the road is fine like it is. Its nice to be able to easily get somewhere thats not so crowded. I'm hardly an elite climber yet I managed to climb Constance in a day. Without the road after the washout I never would have tried. It was a lot of fun coasting downhill the last 5 miles of the day.

I'm with you.