Alpine_Tom Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 They bitch and whine at the drop of a hat around here. Another astute CC.COM poster child redefines bitching as someone points out a 500% fee increase? Going from $200 to $500 isn't a 500% increase, it's a 150% increase. Personally, I don't think the increase is going to fund anything new (like heli flights) just to pad the coffers. Of course, the price of gas has about doubled over the last couple of years, so their costs have gone up... Quote
faster_than_you Posted March 28, 2006 Author Posted March 28, 2006 They bitch and whine at the drop of a hat around here. Another astute CC.COM poster child redefines bitching as someone points out a 500% fee increase? Going from $200 to $500 isn't a 500% increase, it's a 150% increase. Isn't going from $200 to $1000 a 500% increase? That's what the the NPS told the guide services in Feb. That post from the other forum came from one of the guides in Talkeetna. The money isn't aimed at "padding" coffers. The proposal "would" be aimed to offset costs that are currently covered by the NPS. And it "aint" gas prices that driving up costs, it's the way the agency (and the public) view our activity. But hey, as climbers we do a better job arguing amongst ourselves than organizing against a fee increase or even agreeing that fee increase of 150% is too much. I can see the public meeting now. The NPS will put some alternatives on the table, and we climbers will be busy nit-picking each others responses. Quote
cj001f Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 Isn't going from $200 to $1000 a 500% increase? It's 400% increase. And since they are announcing a $500 fee, what does a mythical $1000 fee have to do with anything? I can't imagine why opponents have difficulty gaining traction.... Quote
faster_than_you Posted March 28, 2006 Author Posted March 28, 2006 Isn't going from $200 to $1000 a 500% increase? It's 400% increase. And since they are announcing a $500 fee, what does a mythical $1000 fee have to do with anything? I can't imagine why opponents have difficulty gaining traction.... You again? If $200 is 100%, isn't $1000 5 times $200? We need a math person? As pointed out, they are suggesting a fee of 1k. Sun Tzu would recommend planning for all the possible outcomes. But your mythical point is taken, the entire discussion revolves around what the Chief Ranger told a bunch of guide service owners last Feb. As conceded earlier in the post, the increase is just a "rumor" b/c there has been no "offical" announcement. But hey, we've nothing better to do than to nit pick each other on cc.com. Quote
wfinley Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 I read sometime back that the helicopters that had previously flown supplies to basecamp had been deployed to Iraq. The Army used to fly supplies to KAH and 14 camp for free as training - but now the NPS is having to fly the supplies in on the Lama - which has lead to a high increases in costs. As for the costs and what they're for see my post below where costs are broken down. I'll agree $500 is steep - but do you really think removing the entire NPS staff from Denali will result in a better experience? An average of 1200 people stomp up the WB every year... the route needs some sort of official presence - without one it would be a nightmare. PS... regarding the post that faster_than_you quoted... I'm just going to say that the ANILCA point is BS. This is the same stupid argument that snowmachiners use so they can drive 60 mph across Denali National Park. Furthermore the fee increase does not target Alaskans - but visitors to Alaska. Argue the point logically since this issue affects climbers and could potentially spread across the country... not using some antiquated argument that reminds the country of how self centered Alaskans are when it comes to Federal money. Quote
G-spotter Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 If the current fee is $200, then a $200 fee is a 0% increase, a $300 fee is a 50% increase, a $400 fee is a 100% increase, and $1000 would be a 400% increase Quote
wfinley Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 PS... here's some data: REPORT TO CONGRESS Analysis of Cost Recovery for High-altitude ... http://www.americanalpineclub.cncdsl.com/docs/SAR_Final_Report_to_Congress.pdf The table below summarizes the mountaineering program costs at Denali NP&P for the last three fiscal years. The bar graph on page five illustrates the volume of all kinds of recreation rescue incidents that occurred nationwide in the Park Service during the year 2000. The pie chart at the bottom of page five illustrates that 13 of the 175 national climbing incidents occurred at Denali NP&P. Denali NP&P Mountaineering Operations Budget FY2000 Mt. McKinley Base Budget Personal services $307,600 Supplies/equipment 150,900 Helicopter 156,800 Climber Services 169,400 Military Support 129,000 NPS & Military SAR 348,000 TOTALS $1,261,700 FY1999 Mt. McKinley Base Budget Personal services $271,200 Supplies/equipment 80,800 Helicopter 222,800 Climber Services 163,000 Military Support 127,700 NPS & Military SAR 218,800 TOTALS $1,084,300 FY1998 Mt. McKinley Base Budget Personal services $253,100 Supplies/equipment 38,900 Helicopter 65,600 Climber Services 159,300 Military Support 126,400 NPS & Military SAR 527,700 TOTALS $1,271,000 Base Budget: personal services costs for mountaineering rangers, administrative support staff, training, Lama high-altitude helicopter cost for mountaineering support not related to rescues, supplies, materials, equipment, utilities, loss-of-life claim payments. 1 MEMORANDUM for the Washington Office and all Field Offices: March 29, 1940, From Arno B. Cammerer, Director, National Park Service Climber services: expenditures of fees collected to help cover cost of providing education services, processing/printing permits, producing mountaineering guides, and producing informational packets for climbers. NPS Search and Rescue: volunteer salaries, premium pay costs for Denali employees during SAR operations, Lama rental and hourly usage costs, emergency supplies Military SAR Support: value of military support during SAR operations Military Support: value of military support for setting up and demobilization of base camps The following explains the cost of the high-altitude helicopter and is not in addition to the above table: High-altitude Helicopter (Lama) Program Funding Source FY2000 Denali Park Base Budget: $156,800 NPS Search and Rescue: 190,000 TOTAL: $346,800 FY1999 Denali Park Base Budget: $222,800 NPS Search and Rescue: 103,200 TOTAL: $326,000 FY1998 Denali Park Base Budget: $ 65,600 NPS Search and Rescue: 206,200 TOTAL: $271,800 Denali Base Budget: minimum contract cost not covered by SAR funding, salary cost for NPS helicopter manager, mountaineering/resource protection support not related to SAR, rental of helicopter pad in Talkeetna NPS Search and Rescue: volunteer salaries, premium pay cost for Denali employees during SAR operations, Lama rental and hourly usage cost during SAR operations, emergency supplies Also... in 2004 1275 climbers attempted Denali and 130 were Alaskans. The other thing I found interesting was on this document: Backcountry Operations This year we conducted one spring snowmachine patrol, one hunting patrol to the Kichatna Spires and one patrol to McGonagall Pass. We also assisted the Northside operations with several hunting patrols. The mountaineering staff flew 42 hours of fixed wing aircraft, including flights over the park for hunting, mountaineering patrols and glacier training. I wonder if expenses for monitoring hunters is considered part of the mountaineering budget since it is conducted by mountaineering staff? Quote
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