catbirdseat Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 A fertility doctor claims he has implanted a cloned human embryo into a woman. If successful, the woman would give birth to a clone of her husband. I think Dr. Zavos is bluffing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 Wha? I jsut read yesterday in some canuk paper that they had reached a blockade in gene duplication and that cloning was 'far off at best.' All these "scientists" faking results. What ever happened to the two 'genius' brothers that created a new form of physics or something and the international community renounced their theory as a fabrication. Science doesn't do anything for me anymore. One day they say carrots prevent cancer, the next they cause it. Fuck modern science what has it gotten us? GMO's and much ado about nuttin'! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted January 17, 2004 Author Share Posted January 17, 2004 You seek certainty from science. Science isn't about certainty. A theory is true as long as experiments continue to support it, otherwise, it goes out and is replace by a new one. If this guy is a fake, he will be exposed, eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 No. When scientists have become more magicians, whos craft is based more on deception than empiricism, than scientists I tend to write them off. I am jaded by the continual mistruths in science and the fact that 99.999% of the time $$$ has everything to do with it. If it is not $$$, then it is one's ego that control's the experiment. I think I dont give a shit about science anymore. I used to love it, but this is a bastardization of an art that is supposed to be based on empiricism. When I hear contraditcory findings near daily, I start to not even care. It is just getting worse and I am young. I can wait to see what these fuckos think of next. Excercise makes you fat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 No. When scientists have become more magicians, whos craft is based more on deception than empiricism, than scientists I tend to write them off. I am jaded by the continual mistruths in science and the fact that 99.999% of the time $$$ has everything to do with it. If it is not $$$, then it is one's ego that control's the experiment. I think I dont give a shit about science anymore. I used to love it, but this is a bastardization of an art that is supposed to be based on empiricism. When I hear contraditcory findings near daily, I start to not even care. It is just getting worse and I am young. I can wait to see what these fuckos think of next. Excercise makes you fat! Scotty, you obviously don't know anybody doing research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-rock Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 Wha? I jsut read yesterday in some canuk paper that they had reached a blockade in gene duplication and that cloning was 'far off at best.' All these "scientists" faking results. What ever happened to the two 'genius' brothers that created a new form of physics or something and the international community renounced their theory as a fabrication. Science doesn't do anything for me anymore. One day they say carrots prevent cancer, the next they cause it. Fuck modern science what has it gotten us? GMO's and much ado about nuttin'! That's because you get your science from the mainstream media instead of from primary scientific journals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 so i should read every primary source journal? faq that. just because i am attacking your baby doesn't mean i am wrong. obviously this guy's first hand research leaves much to be desired. Who is to say that it is not more prevalent that you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted January 17, 2004 Author Share Posted January 17, 2004 Nothing is obvious, Scott. There is no basis to debate this doctor's scientific merit, only the ethics of cloning a human. There is no reason to believe that the experience with humans will be any different than with animals, and that is one can expect many malformed and self-aborted fetuses and offspring with short and sickly lives. This is in addition to any other religious and moral concerns one might raise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 But there is reason to say that something smells in denmark when not two days ago, another scientist said that cloning has reached a block with a certain kind of gene replication and then another says they have ALREADY sucessfully done this. The same can be said for carrots causing cancer and preventing cancer ad nauseum... you can see where someone who INS'T A SCIENTIST stands on this. What good is science if it does not advance our knowledge and make our lives better. I see little of the former or latter these days. Science has gone the way everyother industry has (some might argue moreso) by selling out completely to companies. Does anyone do it for the love of science anymore? Sure as hell doesn't look like it from the nosebleed section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinker Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 Scott, I think your view may be a little narrow. Of course there are cutting edge sciences where conflicting observations and conclusions are made. That's not all bad, though, because it let's the ordinary person know that there's still dissention among the leaders in the field. But consider what 'science' has done for your quality of life. Immunizations for childhood diseases and 3rd world plagues, improved climbing gear (polymers and alloys), microprocessors (and all the underlying technology) so you can spray and surf more quickly, therapy for many cancers, and protection from biological and chemical warfare agents...to name few. It's not ALL bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 But consider what 'science' has done for your quality of life. Immunizations for childhood diseases and 3rd world plagues this is the only one that matters... and who did that? Pasteur... I dont consider him to be a modern scientist. I loved science, but the modern bastardization has turned me away. The search for truth has yeilded to pursiut of margins and profits... and you wonder why so many are feeling that modern science is merely snake oil... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 What are the sciences deemed most important? Viagra and acid reducers for conditions that dont exist... Science can save the world, but instead mires it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 Science has gone the way everyother industry has (some might argue moreso) by selling out completely to companies. Does anyone do it for the love of science anymore? Sure as hell doesn't look like it from the nosebleed section. Scott, STFU. Talk to any scientist with a Ph.D who has spent their life doing research, then come here and spray that nobody does science because they don't love it. Research takes so much time and effort, if you don't love it, you don't do it. Saying that the only science that exist is done by chemists for pharmaceutical companies is incredibly narrow-minded. I'm surprised that you never saw any of this in school. What was your major, Leisure Studies? Calling this clone guy a scientist is also a stretch. It's like calling a quack on the street a doctor. As for your carrots, this is so moronic I'm not even going to comment on it. Gain some perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted January 17, 2004 Author Share Posted January 17, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 Scott, STFU. Talk to any scientist with a Ph.D who has spent their life doing research, then come here and spray that The cloning scientist has a PH.D. no? He has also spent his life doing research. Please keep this civil lad. Calling this clone guy a scientist is also a stretch. so what makes a scientist a scientist? A PH.D? he's got one. Just because it looks badly upon scientists, doesn't mean he is not a scientist. Gain some perspective. Here's some perspective for ya kiddie. He is a scientist and miring this topic in sematics over 'what is a scientist' doesn't refute my statements. As for your carrots, this is so moronic I'm not even going to comment on it. and neither does this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 That's right Paul. Never refute anything. Just find some pictures or gremelins to do you bidding ad nauseum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraysovereign Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 A highly regarded member of the community here in Squamish was diagnosed with a malignant tumour in his throat late last spring, and the prognosis was uncertain, at best. He recently was able to announce that, after a series of chemo- and radiation-therapy treatments, there is no sign of any cancer in his system - this only about 7 months after the original diagnosis. The treatments he benefitted from were originally quite controversial, and the debates about their use continue to this day. That's how they continue to improve their methods - by constantly debating, and pushing one another to do better or to try different approaches. It's messy as Hell, but it's possibly (probably?) saved the life of one of the better individuals I've met in many years, so let 'em keep arguing and bickering and disagreeing as long as they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted January 17, 2004 Author Share Posted January 17, 2004 My wife was given two years to live by her doctor in 2000. The drugs she was taking weren't working. I'd done some reading about new class of drugs that has only become available recently. I suggested to her doctor that he prescribe one of them and he did. Her tumor regressed and apparently has disappeared. Her doctor says they don't use the term "remission" any more. They now call it "stable" or something like that. In any case, it pays to stay up on developments in science, even if you aren't an expert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 I agree murray, but when I see the prevalence of conflicting evidence, it leaves my confidence in the system lacking. There is evidence, such as the case with this cloning thing, which somebody had to lie to create. Either the scientist who said that we have reached a blockade in human genetic research is lying or the one that 'created' a human has. If this was an isolated incident i would chalk it up to one of them being a wacko, but I have seen study after study especially in the dieting industry, the pharmaceutical industry and the environmental field end up in directly conflicting evidence. I agree with the arguing which ends up progressing the science, but it seems that this constructive argumentation is giving way to arguements based on profits and attempted notoriety (as is the case with this geneticist). I guess it just comes down to the difference between constructive cricism and using the guise of it to secure profit or notoriety that I am trying to point out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 that's awesome CBS and that is the kind of forward criticism that i am talking about. I feel, personally, that some scientists are using this feature in the scientific community to aid them in evil pursuits. The brother physicists come to mind as do the aforementioned geneticist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraysovereign Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Scott, I think your problem perhaps has less to do with contradictory studies and conflicting test results than with the way it ends up being hashed out publicly in the media. It belongs in the scientific journals and peer-review panels, not alongside the weekend football scores in the local paper. But the local papers have learned that there's lots of really eye-catching stuff to be found in those journals, so they run it on the front page to sell papers and to Hell with context or in-depth background because they know no-one will read all the eye-glazing details and footnotes and qualifiers and explanations of methodology and margins of error and on and on. Dr. Zavos doesn't actually have any results to announce here - he's saying they've attempted to implant something in a woman's uterus, but they have no indication that it was successful. He's put together a press conference to announce that maybe something might have happened, but even he isn't sure yet. Can you say "Grandstanding"? This guy's no scientist, no matter how many initials he has strung out after his name: he's a media whore, pure and simple. And the media are playing right along with him, even though the most cursory examination reveals that he's actually got nothing to say. But he doesn't care, 'cause he's got his little hit of media attention, his 15 minutes of fame is under way, and a month from now he'll be forgotten. Real, actual research scientists are cursing him at this very moment precisely because so many people respond to these repeated media circuses by rejecting all scientists as a bunch of wound-up crackpots. Thousands of men and women the world over dedicate years of hard work to the pursuit of meaningful scientific advancement, usually anonymously, only to see their credibility shot to pieces because some nutbar shows up on TV waving a sheet of paper and ranting about "Cold Fusion in my toilet bowl". You're right to be disillusioned, but I think you misdirect it when you blame "science" as a whole. If you must blame someone, blame the glory-hounds and the media morons who publish their "announcements" without questioning anything. But leave the real scientists and researchers to their work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummox Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 A fertility doctor claims he has implanted a cloned human embryo into a woman. i like to implant gametes into women and i am fertile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted January 18, 2004 Author Share Posted January 18, 2004 Here come the science heavyweights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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