Lambone Posted October 14, 2001 Share Posted October 14, 2001 "Hey Lamebone, if I ever got up to the anchor on a route that I thought you were belaying me on, and found you digging in your pack or taking a piss, I would shove my arm up your ass and speak to you with your own penis-sock puppet." -dahrmabum "I shouldn't have said Lamebone, that was inappropriate, I don't even know you. It came off more dickish than I meant. Sorry." Its Lambone you asshole , I don't expect to be climbing together anytime soon. Unless you don't mind me pissing on your head. [This message has been edited by lambone (edited 10-13-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted October 14, 2001 Author Share Posted October 14, 2001 I wasn't trying to start an arguement about what method of belaying is better. Before I got my Reverso I was using a Trango tube for like 8 years and it worked, but I thought it would be refreshing to try something else so I did and I liked it better. Maybe I'm just a sucker to Petzl's marketing genious because I got a new harness, a Tikka, and Tibloc too all which I like and were replacing old gear. I'm going to try this whole thing out for myself and see how simple I can make it. The USMGA while informative is a little complex, I don't want to be sitting at the belay for 20 minutes rigging when all I want to do is lower my partner a few feet. Thanks to all that provided good info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted October 14, 2001 Share Posted October 14, 2001 Here's an idea related to multi-tasking at the belay station. Ever belayed a guy up an aid pitch that seemed to take a good fraction of the day? Ever get distracted or find yourself dozing at the belay after two hours of belaying some slow aid master? Just back up the belay with a clove hitch (with about five feet of slack) and take a nap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin Posted October 14, 2001 Share Posted October 14, 2001 I climb in parties of three fairly often and always use double ropes so both followers could climb at the same time to keep things moving. I used to do this using two munter hitches. This worked but you have to be very attentive to make sure you're giving both a safe belay. This fall I got a reverso and love it. Belaying both climbers becomes easy and even safer (I think) than the two munter hitches. As for lowering the second, I've only done it once and it was a fairly light climber, but I was able to simply grab the second biner and pull it down to release the autoloch and then lowered her a few feet. For a heavy climber being lowered a whole pitch, this probably wouldn't work so well but its seems to work fine for lowering a climber just a few feet, which is usually all that is needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted October 14, 2001 Share Posted October 14, 2001 Yeah Pope, that works. I use yet another Petzl gadget called a Gri-Gri. They work real nice, you should check 'um out. It is the most static belay device on the market though, so its important give a dynamic belay if the gear is sketchy. Jon, don't feel guilty about buying Petzl stuff. Every company advertises, but only a few make really good + inovative products. Petzl is one of them, the others are just nock offs. Don, sorry if I came of sounding like an instructor. I know well enough that you don't need a punk like me "telling you how it is!" I don't think many begginers would have any use for a Reverso, but thats not who its geared towards. dahrmab, I was just kidding... Everyone else on this site has called me Lamebone, or I-am-a-bone, so what the hell difference does it make if you do to... welcome to the club! Yet, I'd argue that "multi-tasking" at the belay is an important part of getting off long routes before dark. Especially if you climb a slow as I do! Anyway, Kevins right- Reverso's kick ass (but too bad they make alot of noise when clipped to your harness ). [This message has been edited by lambone (edited 10-14-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haireball Posted October 14, 2001 Share Posted October 14, 2001 interesting thread - some questions raised and a few challenges issued: to mr. Lambone - I have, in fact belayed two and more followers on munter hitches in full alpine (snowy/icy) conditions - like any other skill, it comes with practice - been munter-hitching since the mid-70s... -prior to the advent of tools like the reverso, guides and instructors used a technique called the "alpine clutch" to belay multiple following climbers. The alpine clutch was a "hands-off" top belay which involved threading the belay rope through a pair of matched carabiners in such a way that the rope would only run in one direction, but would lock when pulled in the other direction. -prior to the advent of the sticht plate and the tuber, the existing belay techniques were the hip belay, the figure-8 device, the "carabiner wrap" and the munter hitch. Of these, I had seen published tables from Europe (courtesy of the UIAGM - I was teaching self-rescue seminars for the AMGA in the 80's) suggesting that a hip belay, perfectly executed under ideal conditions (whatever that means) is capable of generating about 2KN of stopping force. A figure-8 (designed for rappelling, NOT belaying), again under "ideal" conditions, might generate about 3 KN of stopping force, while a munter hitch (again, perfectly executed under ideal conditions) could generate about 5KN of stopping force. The UIAGM, in those days, recommended that guides restrict themselves to using munter hitch belays. -- in my opinion, then, the inventors of the plate and tube style belay devices were not creating a superfluous product - they created a product that could approximate the stopping capacity of a munter hitch, and was easier to use. I have not used a reverso, but judging from the questions and issues raised in this thread, I suspect that it would not easily meet these criteria for being a significant improvement - i.e. performs as well or better than the competition, and is easier to use... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted October 14, 2001 Share Posted October 14, 2001 With all do respect haireball, and I do respect (almost) all "old schoolers," here again are some of my agruments about this silly little insignificant tool of our trade... "-prior to the advent of tools like the reverso, guides and instructors used a technique called the "alpine clutch" to belay multiple following climbers. The alpine clutch was a "hands-off" top belay which involved threading the belay rope through a pair of matched carabiners in such a way that the rope would only run in one direction, but would lock when pulled in the other direction." -It sounds like you are refering to what some people/books call a Garda Knot. My opinion is that it works well for hauling a pack and such, but it is almost impossible to release it while its loaded, without riging a mini-haul to unweight it. This would make lowering a climber a real pain in the ass! Am I wrong, or are we talking about two different things? "-- in my opinion, then, the inventors of the plate and tube style belay devices were not creating a superfluous product - they created a product that could approximate the stopping capacity of a munter hitch, and was easier to use. I have not used a reverso, but judging from the questions and issues raised in this thread, I suspect that it would not easily meet these criteria for being a significant improvement - i.e. performs as well or better than the competition, and is easier to use..."[/b] -personally, in my opinion, I think that the Reverso is the best thing out there for what it does (belaying two ropes independantly off the anchor). It is smoother than a Kong Gi-Gi, and you can also belay the leader with it. The fact that it doesn't twist the hell out of your ropes makes it worth carrying, and the twenty bucks. And if you drop it, than you can allways use a munter hitch. [This message has been edited by lambone (edited 10-14-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallstein Posted October 15, 2001 Share Posted October 15, 2001 I have used a reverso on 5 long full day (10+ pitches) rock climbs and have used it for 25 days cragging. It rocks. I have lowered a 170lb climber a full overhanging pitch with no re-rigging. All i did was pull up on the biner the rope runs through. It worked just fine with my rope (9.8 edelweiss). It would probably be more dificult with a fat stiff rope. The only problem I have found with them is giving a real smooth lead belay. I used to clip it in to my belay loop with the slack side out and the lead side towards me. I discovered that there is less friction when it is reveresed. DumbDarhma- I guess I am one of the 2% of the people that like things easier and safer. And what is so redundant about this belay device? It't the only device I take with me. When I have a choice to buy gear or go climbing I go climbing like 98% of the people on this board. Just because the device is to complicated for you and you don't like new gear don't rip on everyone else. Maybe once you are done masturbating while thinking about yourself you will look and see that no one here cares about the comp section of the rags. (well maybe lambone) [This message has been edited by Wallstein (edited 10-14-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted October 15, 2001 Share Posted October 15, 2001 Hahahaha, so you do remember...no hard feelings ok. All I have to say about comps is that the kids that climb on our team at the gym are super fun to be around, super positive, and super driven. I think they add something to the climbing scene(how much is realative to ones own opinion), I'm happy to support 'em. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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