Jud

Related to my other topic/post about rope length (i.e., when is 60m too long, i.e., how to trade off the weight savings of a shorter rope, say, 50m vs. the utility of having a longer rope 'just in case') --how do you make the decision to carry a retrieval line for single-rope rapping? Is it based on what you would know beforehand about the descent part of a route (i.e., that areas for rap anchors are far apart, so rapping on a single rope is the best option), or because of the desire to rap down as quickly as possible b/c of objective danger on the route? (rock and ice fall, bad weather, etc.) I suspect this latter criteria is the reason for Steve House/Vince Anderson's decision to lug up a 55m 5mil. cord all the way to the top of Nanga Parbat, something they only used on the descent...presumably so that they could rap long sections quickly and get the hell off the face. E.g., see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIkmYiwbZWg Just a guess...I'd like to understand how/where one decides to (1) bring a retrieval line; and (2) how one decides to rap on a single line on the descent. Thanks...Jud

I'm reading in Houston and Cosley's nice book "Alpine Climbing: Techniques to Take You Higher" that they're a bit surprised at how long ropes have gotten in recent years...it seems that they used to be sold rather shorter, whereas 60 meters is common now, almost the standard (and they expect them to get longer!). If someone was looking for ways to shave weight for alpine routes that you knew didn't "need" a long rope, would cutting 10 m off a 60m rope be dumb...i.e., I'm wondering how to trade off the utility of having a longer rope vs. weight savings. Cosley/Houston, experienced guides, seem to feel that 60 meters is a pretty long rope for most alpine situations (and even go shorter if they know for sure the route they'll guide or climb doesn't need more than, say, a 30 meter rope). Sorry if this seems dumb...looking at the Steve House interview about Nanga Parbat, he and Vince Anderson took a 50 meter rope, so it made me wonder. I'm no Steve House, of course, but would 50 meters generally be fine? (They also had a 55 meter 5mm rope for use on rappel.)

"A great ascent is more than the sum of its severe pitches" - Lionel Terray...this quote, and the excerpt below kind of answers my question about what a grade means in an alpine context (i.e., like the House/Anderson route on Nanga Parbat's Rupal face, which I was originally curious about.) It made it very visually clear to me! 'As Terray wrote many years later "Of all the climbs I have done, Fitzroy was the one which most nearly approached the limits of my stamina and morale. Technically speaking, it is doubtless slightly less extreme that some of the climbs that have been done on granite in the Alps in recent years, but a great ascent is more than the sum of its severe pitches. The remoteness of the Fitzroy from all possibility of help, the almost incessant bad weather, the verglas with which it is plastered, and above all the terrible winds which make climbing on it mortally dangerous, render its ascent more complex, hazardous and exhausting than any to be found in the Alps." ' From: "The Mechanical Advantage", by John Middendorf http://www.bigwalls.net/climb/mechadv/

Great thread...and great tip. I've just bought one of these 9.8 dry ropes for myself...for occasional cragging, but for simple alpine missions this summer. Great deal...and no shipping charge either!

Oh, I understood that the Euro grades were pretty standard...i.e., looking at my copy of Alpine Select for SW British Columbia, Kevin McLane uses that system to rate the various climbs...so I figured it was a standard of some sort for alpine (amongst the welter of unique national rock grade systems". Hard route? Hell, House makes it sound easy (thanks to my selective editing from the text in the link you posted). "In the morning we rapelled back to the main ice gully and continued to our high bivuoac at approximently 7,400 meters...the technical difficulties eased the higher we climbed. "... we arrived just below the south summit at over 8,000 meters and could see the last easy meters to the top." Ya see, he uses the word "easy" twice...

I just realized that my confusion over the grade assigned to the route in my example (House/Anderson route on the Rupal face of Nanga Parbat, obviously a hellacious climb, to say the least) is because it didn't have a French alpine rating descriptor attached to it, like ED...(it was just 5.9/WI3-4 or something like that, but 4,100 meters). I wonder why no ED, etc. rating as I'd think something like that would be standard...but maybe for a super extreme route like that, everyone KNOWS anyway that it's ED2 or ED3 or whatever (Abominable?!), so no need to add those letters. Anyway, thanks all for the clarifications and insights...very helpful as a "newb" trying to get a feel for what the various ratings mean/can mean/don't mean/might mean/should mean...etc. Too much hard thinking is making me thirsty, and it's Friday...

Thanks...what you and Trogdor say makes total sense. It's been puzzling me, trying to get a "feel" for what an alpine grade meant. In sum, the grades appear to mean nothing...yet, on the other hand, mean something quite important! Puzzling, that

So, then, a logical question for a novice like myself is "how are such alpine ratings assigned". I mean, I understand that a 5.7 in the gym is, in various ways, different from 5.7 on rock (and that rock 5.7s, etc. vary a bit by location). So, why is the House/Anderson route "only" 5.9 and the Kurtyka/Schauer route on Gash "only" 5.7? Surely it can't mean that the hardest moves on those routes are 5.9 and 5.7? Or maybe so, and the difficulty comes in the extreme length of the route and the need for real speed to get it done and off the mountain quickly? I don't quite "get" alpine ratings. Presumably, it's the length of the route that is key when it has a "low" (i.e., 5.7) rating? Does that make sense? Is there a basic guide somewhere to understanding alpine grades?

Duh...thanks, G-Spotter...it is indeed 4,100 meters...I saw the (4,100m) before the rock/ice ratings, and for some reason thought it was two separate numbers (4 and 100m )relating to something else...I'm easily confused, it seems Yup, Rupal face of Nanga Parbat it is. It totally surprised me to learn that the House-Anderson Route they climbed in '05 is "only" M5/5.9/WI4...that is, I'd have expected it to be a more technically severe climb...but, of course, 4,100 meters would be pretty bloody severe...!

The original forecast, a week before, was for 2*C and clouds/periods of snow...in the event, that day, it was around 20*C (70's F). Fantastic weather. I'd have been fine with hail and snow, since it would've simulated being in the alpine, but sun was sure nice... Yeah, I spent part of last June under the Zombie Roof...nice place to learn in the rain. But we got a chance to actually climb which was sweet! I knew the guide/instructor, which made it really nice...great guy and teacher.

OK, a question and a bit of a riddle...I just read a trip report and saw this at the end of the report: (4,100m, M5/5.9, WI4). I understand the M5/5.9 ratings for the mixed and rock portions of the climb, and WI4 for the water ice portions of the climb --but what is the first part (4, 100m)? The figures don't appear to relate to the standard alpine grades (Roman numerals), etc. that I'm slightly familiar with. Anyone know? Next question (the riddle): Guess the climb (sorry, no hints, but suffice to say you will probably be surprised by the answer! Just have fun with it.) Jud

Thanks, Sherri...Good point: I hadn't considered that the unstable weather this time of year might be a "deal breaker" for some people --but it looks like SRG has a good/fair course cancellation policy if the weather craps out (cancellation policy here, bottom of the page: http://www.squamishrockguides.com/register.htm) Anyway, there are plenty of dry/overhanging places in Squamish where guides teach if it's only light rain...no biggie (I had the same experience last summer for an alpine/mountaineering course, part of which was in Squamish.) Weather is weather...esp. in the mountains. The guide/instructor for that was Paul McSorley, who also teaches with SRG...he is, quite simply, a fantastic and generous teacher and very nice guy. I'd climb with him any day, anywhere (if he'd climb with me ) So, yeah, me too: good experience with SRG. Anyway, as far as I know the course is still open, so we'll see. I've sent out some emails to folks I know too...so if the weather looks good, it seems like it might go ahead. But I'll keep the board posted...I've got a bunch of rock and alpine climbs on my "to do" agenda this spring/summer/fall...so now seems like the time to start getting some trad/multipitch skills under my belt! Jud

Joe...I posted in the General Discussion and somewhere else on the forum today the message below...sounds like a solution to your question, and I'm sort of in the same boat. The course is only $250 (C$) for two full days...pretty cheap for professional instruction: I'm looking for one or two people who might be interested in taking a 2-day "learn to trad lead" course with Squamish Rock Guides next weekend, April 12/13, in Squamish, BC. I really want to take the course, however, SRG requires a minimum of 3 people to run it (max. of 4 people). Presently, there is only one person --me-- but there might be one more, my gym climbing partner. Full info/details on the course are here: http://www.squamishrockguides.com/trad2.htm Don't delay...learn to trad lead now so that you can get a jump on the summer! (Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with SRG...I just want to take the course, so am looking for others who also might want to also so that the course will be run. If interested, you should register ASAP so that SRG can line up a guide/instructors ASAP for next weekend...) Cheers, Jud judson.berry@sauder.ubc.ca or 604-783-7483 in case anyone has any questions for me...but I'm just an interested climber who wants to learn trad.

Hi, I'm looking for one or two people who might be interested in taking a 2-day "learn to trad lead" course with Squamish Rock Guides next weekend, April 12/13, in Squamish, BC. I really want to take the course, however, SRG requires a minimum of 3 people to run it (max. of 4 people). Presently, there is only one person --me-- but there might be one more, my gym climbing partner. Full info/details on the course are here: http://www.squamishrockguides.com/trad2.htm Don't delay...learn to trad lead now so that you can get a jump on the summer! (Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with SRG...I just want to take the course, so am looking for others who also might want to also so that the course will be run. If interested, you should register ASAP so that SRG can line up a guide/instructors ASAP for next weekend...) Cheers, Jud judson.berry@sauder.ubc.ca or 604-783-7483 in case anyone has any questions for me...but I'm just an interested climber who wants to learn trad.

Hi, I'm looking for one or two people who might be interested in taking a 2-day "learn to trad lead" course with Squamish Rock Guides next weekend, April 12/13, in Squamish, BC. I really want to take the course, however, SRG requires a minimum of 3 people to run it (max. of 4 people). Presently, there is only one person --me-- but there might be one more, my gym climbing partner. Full info/details on the course are here: http://www.squamishrockguides.com/trad2.htm Don't delay...learn to trad lead now so that you can get a jump on the summer! (Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with SRG...I just want to take the course, so am looking for others who also might want to also so that the course will be run. If interested, you should register ASAP so that SRG can line up a guide/instructors ASAP for next weekend...) Cheers, Jud judson.berry@sauder.ubc.ca or 604-783-7483 in case anyone has any questions for me...but I'm just an interested climber who wants to learn trad.

Hi, I'm looking for one or two people who might be interested in taking a 2-day "learn to trad lead" course with Squamish Rock Guides next weekend, April 12/13, in Squamish, BC. I really want to take the course, however, SRG requires a minimum of 3 people to run it (max. of 4 people). Presently, there is only one person --me-- but there might be one more, my gym climbing partner. Full info/details on the course are here: http://www.squamishrockguides.com/trad2.htm Don't delay...learn to trad lead now so that you can get a jump on the summer! (Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with SRG...I just want to take the course, so am looking for others who also might want to also so that the course will be run. If interested, you should register ASAP so that SRG can line up a guide/instructors ASAP for next weekend...) Cheers, Jud judson.berry@sauder.ubc.ca or 604-783-7483 in case anyone has any questions for me...but I'm just an interested climber who wants to learn trad.