jonmf76
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Posts posted by jonmf76
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Here is another consideration. When I chose my boots, the Scarpa Invernos, I did so for all around use, including tech ice, mountaineering, and general winter glacier stuff/snowshoeing.
The reason is that the uppers are flexible and much more comfortable for the slog out or in before or after the climb. But, when laced down tight, are stiff enough for vertical waterfall ice. They are not the platforms that the Koflachs and others might be, but they hold their own.
As for Denali, they make a silver foil "high altitude liner" for extreme cold conditions that you can swap out with the regular lace up liner. The only thing I don't like about those is that they don't have laces, just an elastic band thing to squeeze them on your foot. Of course you want to avoid constriction when it is cold, but I didn't like climbing in a boot that felt as firm as a slipper. However, my feet roasted! I am glad I brought both liners, because these silver foil ones were WAY TOO HOT for the lower Kahiltna.
So if you plan on doing waterfall ice AND Denali, this boot might be a good one for you to consider.
Whenever I used the Koflachs (the older ones, mind you) they just ripped up the front of my shins and I could barely hike in them. They were awesome on steep ice, but the pain of the approach hike was too much of a trade off for me. I find the Scarpas to be the most comfortable double plastic boot I have tried. The optional high altitude liner sealed the deal for me.
Just found this after I wrote this post:
Mountain Trip's recommendations:
"Recommended System Boots: SCARPA “PHANTOM 8000”, LA SPORTIVA “OLYMPUS MONS EVO ”
Recommended Double Boots: SCARPA “INVERNO” with High Altitude Liners, KOFLACH “ARCTIS EXPEDITION”, LA SPORTIVA "NUPTSE" OR "SPANTIK". "
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Ryland,
I am just a guy who had a few questions about this climbing route and situation. I signed up here a few days ago just to ask these questions. I found this board from a link in an article on CNN (I think) as I was reading about this story. It mentioned that the one of the 3 climbers had posted questions here about the route.
That is the whole story. No hidden agenda or B.S. Just questions.
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Minx,
Thanks for the kind words. Are you willing to supply me with unlimited quantities of Advil to stick around here? lol
My intent with the post was genuine concern and curiosity. For those who didn't quite get it, when you see a question mark, that indicates that a question proceeded. A question indicates and desire for accurate knowledge. Is that hard to understand? (yes, that is a question)
FOR THE RECORD:
1. I think the rescuers there are highly qualified professional climbers who have sound judgement and skills.
2. I mean no disrespect to their decision to not go up.
I merely posed the question of whether the weather conditions were truly as severe as they appear to be. Some of you gave stellar answers to my nit picky questions. Thank you for your responses.
3. My heart goes out to the 3 guys up there and their families. Their courage and strength is an inspiration to me.
Watching this unfold is causing incredible anxiety for all of us. I can barely get any work done as I flip back and forth between CNN and NWCN. The images and words of this story cause me haunting memories as I am sure some of you guys know exactly what I am referring to.
We all hope for a break in the weather and a positive outcome to this scenario.
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I assumed this was a place to come and talk about serious climbing topics with serious climbers. With the exception of a handful of knowledgable replies, and you know who you are as I thanked you individually, the rest of you guys seem to just be full of hot air.
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W,
Thanks for the great photo. It helps put a lot more into perspective. The news reports indicated that the upper climber appeared to be above that gully level. That is what I am going on. The original picture and map that was shown on the news showed them on the ridge route to the left, not the left of the two long and shadowed gullies. that is a lot of what I based my questions on.
Thank you SO much for the tips on how the mountains work! I had NO idea!
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W,
I am distinguishing between 'sluffing' and true 'slab releases'. Of course the slab is the worst. As for sluffing, which I define as essentially fluffy snow and spindrift that loads and then collapses under its own weight, thereby sluffng down the gully you are climbing, it seems less of a concern than slabs.
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gslater,
Thanks for reading my original question as I had intended it. I am not sure why few others could pick up on that and instead decided to attack me as if I suggested bolting a crack climb! I think people don't actually read each and every word anymore and then just add their own agenda.
The topography does seem to be the significant issue. I guess my frame of reference is thinking of climbs like the Cassin Ridge, etc.. (which I am not good enough to climb, but where many others are) but also thinking of all those times where conditions were as bad or worse then what they are reporting that I have climbed, even as a mediochre climber that I was/am.
The close up photos of the route that has been shown on the news would indicate the technical severity.
As for the continuous sluffing..I have always thought of that as a good thing because it means the snow isn't loading. Loading snow scares me more than fluffy sluffs..I base this on numerous (15) winter ascents that I have done (yes, I actually climbed something) on Mount Washington, N.H. Climbing those ice routes in Huntington's Ravine during whiteout and driving snow..and simply planting 2 tools deep and bracing for the falling sluffs (really just because I hated it when that would go down the back of your neck because you were looking up!) Anyway, that was how I learned, maybe stupidly as I was young and invincible.
What I also learned was that government agencies would frequently post high avalanche warnings that we regularly ignored since we were invincible. What we commonly found when we got on the route was that the report was overly cautious to warn beginners. And even when the avalanche danger was extremely high, it frequently seemed that you could veer on the route to find better snow. That is what I have always done on mountains and it has worked in 20+ yrs of climbing.
The other things I learned, or think I did, was that there is rarely such a thing as sustained non-stop 80 mph winds for 5 days straight on a mountain. Yes there are gusts to that level and beyond, but I have yet to see non-stop winds like that. I might be wrong on that, but on my first Denali expedition in '96, the forecast was for sustained 50-100 mph winds and after spending 7 days at 14,000', I can attest that gusts like that are terrifying, but were not by any means non-stop. Some people did go up. I chose not to. There were climbers there from Nepal who had summited Everest and they turned back as well. I took a clue from them and still have all my toes and fingers. Either way, the forecast is for worse weather and I guess that reinforces my point a little bit.."push up when you can, while you can, because it may get worse."
OK, let the bashing begin..again! I am clearly just full of sh@t.
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Ryland,
I long ago gave up paying attention to the windbags you meet in the climbing world. Nowadays they all just seem to be gym rats, at least in the area where I am now, and it seems harder and harder to find people who've actually been in those conditions and can make an intelligent climbing decision based on so many experiences you don't count anymore.
This is why I am not a member of these kinds of sites. Frankly, I'd rather be doing the stuff rather than sitting around talking about it.
And yes, I agree with you on the weather. It has an eerie feel to it. You can just feel that it is ugly extreme weather. This recent weather pattern has that kind of serious deep feel to it, unlike just passing storms...in fact it reminds me of the la nina storms we faced on Denali in '96. They came every 2 days the entire time I was there. It was brutal. I put off a Shasta climb a couple of weeks ago because the atmosphere just had that major unstable feeling about it..I am glad I did. This is bad, bad weather.
I am unable to not think about what these guys are facing right now. I picture my own body in a snow cave, like that one at about 16,200' on Denali and try to enter into that picture the wind and spindrift and loading going on there now..it is not a pretty picture. It gives me chills in my marrow.
While I don't pray, I do believe in hope.
As far as 'experts' go, I don't really believe in them. They frequently tend to be self-appointed. I just think there are people with lots of experience and those with less. After a while, you start to see who has actually been there and who is just talking smack about being there. Unfortunately, the world of climbing seems disproportionately smack anymore.
I miss the days of wool....
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Ryland Moore,
Where were you 55 posts ago? We could have avoided all this ad hominem my penis is bigger than yours crap!
Your answer is exactly what I was looking for all along. I never stated that conditions were a certain way, I ASKED if they were. Unfortunately, all the swinging donkeys have to turn it into a throw down...god! I hate friggin climbers! lol I was not aware that you are required to post your entire climbing resume here in order to ask a question.
As for your description and assessment of the situation, you have me almost 100% convinced of the logic. The temperature thing I am still having a hard time with, but with all the other distinct objective hazards, the decision would clearly be a no-brainer of not to go up. It is hard to assess that from news reports where they are standing in the rain 4,000' below these guys. It would appear the conditions were not that severe, but your first hand knowledge of the combined concerns and the big picture make it a lot easier to see what's really going on there.
BTW, the rock ain't so stable on Denali anymore since global warming..at least the stuff glued into the ice, that is..one person was killed near Windy Corner, I believe, from falling granite a few years ago, as I am sure you already know.
thanks again for knowing what the hell you're talking about and sharing that with me/us.
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DeChristo,
Do you have anything thoughtful to add to this post? We had our fist fight, now let's get back to discussing climbing and this situation.
Jonmf76
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hawkeye69,
That's funny...I've been thinking about volunteering again but I assumed that the groups are now all filled with too many macho young guys..I am too old to spend 3 hours arguing about what pulley ratio to use while the climber in the crevasse is freezing to death.
I guess your first sentence is pretty much the situation. Thanks for your sensible answers.
Dechristo, You're an ass. I never suggested that there was an option available that was not being exercised. That would be absurd. I was merely trying to decipher if anyone else thought there might be another option.
I am not at Mount Hood right now. I am just watching the news and the weather like everyone else and am now scratching my head a bit.
And I came here to see if anyone else had more intimate knowledge about this route and mountain. The guys who have climbed there gave thoughtful and helpful answers. The guys who simply attacked me clearly had no specific knowledge of this route or mountain.
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Joseph,
I agree. Fair enough. But if it is raining at 7000' to me that would seem pretty warm even at 11,000' I mean we're not talking continuous 80 mph and -30 F conditions. Oh forget it...all those mountains and I still don't know the first thing about climbing..excuse me but I need to go take down all my pictures now.
Anybody wanna buy some down pants? and a pile of XG-Ks?
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geez guys, I never once said that anyone was doing a bad job or that old climbers are useless...all I was doing is discussing this issue...
This is why I can't stand most climber's anymore...all they do is attack you for anything they can come up with. Grow up guys! You know who you are. But thanks to the other thoughtful posts. I do appreciate those. griz...get a life dude.
Hawkeye69, true, but you can yell to each other in whiteout or use airhorns..which the guy in the cave might actually hear and yell back. No?
TrogdortheBurninator, yes, good point that it is probably more dangerous than the west butt, but 3 lives are at stake and the west butt is considered an easier route on that mountain. Doesn't that warrant a more extreme effort?
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griz,
It sounds like you have never climbed in 80 mph winds before. It doesn't launch a body into the air...it knocks you over. BTW, that spot where the guy did launch into the air, only to be caught by his rope to his teammates was on Denali.
As for the whole pussy thing...I guess it is just different in Alaska.
And the reason I haven't died in the mountains is that I have made the right decisions at the right time. I didn't let my ego get in the way.
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Bird Dog,
I too am sure the rescuers are doing the best they can. But I am also sure the Sheriff or whomever is coordinating is also making certain to not allow them to get in too much risk with liabiltiy issues the way they are. In the meantime, the 3 guys are facing certain hypothermia if they only packed for 2 days.
And isn't it a little bit silly to compare going from 8000' to 11'000 on Hood to going from 14,200 to 17,200 on Denali? I mean COME ON!
And as for Denali and its fixed lines, etc...there was a period there where I climbed for 5 days without seeing another person or a wand in whiteout conditions by using a compass and orienting when there was visibility. One night had 10' of snow. I set my watch alarm every two hours to get out and dig out my tent. I did that 3 times that night. And we're talking 23" here on Hood.
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Aside from the clear and present avalanche conditions, we're still talking only 3000' elevation gain at only 11,000' elevation with above freezing temps at 7000'. Doesn't that seem not that bad?
I mean, couldn't a team(s) go out with GPS and packs loaded with food, fuel, etc..and just plug on upward? That would prevent more needing to be rescued because they'd be prepared for many days out. They too could dig in to snow caves if conditions got that bad, but they could also bring food and fuel to those 3 guys.
As for avoiding the avalanche danger, with that level of wind, couldn't someone get up the leeward side of the ridge? Just wondering out loud here.
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Alasdair,
Why regret your post? It seems straight forward, except where it gets preachy at the end...lol
You raise some excellent points about the volunteer situation. I watched a few of them being interviewed on the news and they did seem to be guys in their 50's...which frankly surprised me. I worked with the Alaska Mountain Rescue Group for a few years teaching crevasse rescue classes and I agree these were not the top climbers in the region, just interested and willing participants. But skilled none the less..
I don't know that particular route, but from the pictures of the mountain it seems like a rather finite area where the upper guy is supposed to be, between 10,000' and 11,000' as it would appear the route narrows to a gully or so.
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ya umm griz...I would assume people who know that mountain intimately might be able to find there way even in white out, which is generally on and off when it is that windy.
As for disrespecting anyone, it would seem that your P.S. is the only disrespect going on here.
It is a legitimate question that I am asking to people who are more in the know. Are you in the know? If so, please explain to me what is really going on there. They said it is raining at 7000' tonight. That doesn't sound too impossible to me, but then again, what do I know?
High on Rock...that is basically exactly what I was thinking...I wonder if the authorities are preventing anyone else from going up the mountain. I would bet they are. Anyone know?
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Ummm no. It is just me..jonmf76. This is not a B.S. post. I want some real feedback on this..
Thanks!
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Am I the only one who finds the whole Mount Hood situation bizarre that not one person has gone all the way up to find these 3 guys because the weather reports don't seem impossible to me?
The reports indicate gusts to 80, which probably means steady 30-50 mph winds, white out, snow loading, etc. But they keep saying no one can get above the 7000 foot level. These are conditions regularly found on Denali.
So why hasn't someone just pushed their way up there with a backpack full of freeze dried beef stroganoff (insert your favorite Mountain House flavor here)?
I wonder if it is the 'rule of the rescuer' that no one proceeds if the rescuer is at heightened risk. In the meantime, these 3 guys are dying because no one will ascend a whopping 3000' to get them some food? Clearly they didn't pack for multiday and are now starving and hypothermic.
It would really suck to hear another James Kim type of story because some beaurocratic agency rule prevented someone from reaching them in time.
Or am I just crazy? I have climbed in these conditions a lot on Denali for a lot longer than 3000' elevation gain and I'm no superhero.
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OMG, will you just marry me now please?
You're what I have been looking for my whole life! -
Just get this book by Andy Selters.
http://www.amazon.com/Glacier-Travel-Crevasse-Rescue-Routefinding/dp/0898866588
It is a good place to start and covers what you'd need for basic glacier travel.
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Hello all:
This topic is near and dear to me. I developed asthma on my first climb on Denali, with coughing beginning at 8000'. I assumed it was just dry air cough, but after the climb it never went away until I was diagnosed with exercise induced asthma.
Since then, I have done 2 more Denali climbs. On the second climb, I began to develop HAPE symptoms (rales) because I was feeling strong and climbed too fast. I went to 11,000' in 3 or 4 days. That night I could hear crackling in my lungs and descended the next day to recuperate, before moving back up. I believe I was on Singulair for that climb and may have taken Decadron as well..
On the third climb, I was on proper meds (singulair) and carried Albuterol inhaler, which was at constant risk of freezing. Climbed to 17,000' with asthma indistinguishable from general high altitude breathing difficulties.
Prior to all of this, I had summited Orizaba in Mexico (just under 19,000'(5700M)), but that was before I had either known I had asthma, or had it at all.
On Denali I spoke with Peter Hackett, the guy who kinda wrote the book on all this and we discussed asthma and high altitude climbing. The concensus was that asthma had no direct effect on HAPE. He suggested with proper meds, there should be essentially no problem...(obviously, he doesn't have asthma! lol.) My pulmonary specialist in Anchorage mirrored his comments. They all seem to agree that other than the cold as a trigger, altitude shouldn't effect asthmatics differentially.
Since all of that, the use of Advair diskus has been the most effective treatment. It is a combo of broncodialators and steroids in powder inhalant form. The stuff really works. I have not yet tried that combo with high altitude.
boots
in Newbies
Posted
Have you tried putting boiling water in a one quart nalgene then into an insulated case and putting it between your ankles at night in the sleeping bag?
I find that the increase in circulation that night and the drying effect on your socks, in particular, really helps keep my feet warm during the next day's climbing itself. There's a huge difference between bone dry socks first thing in the morning and slightly damp ones from the night before.