Checat

Index Leavenworth is a tight second, but leavy is a much more ambiguous destination I'm sure sport climbing heavy folks would put an argument in for "The Exits"

Mitch I'm sorry to hear about your shoes and I hope you get them back?!?! thats ridiculous I only posted because you asked about similar experiences - for years one of the best resolers nationwide operated out of Vegas, near RR, my buddies and I bundled 4 or 5 pairs and sent them in together (from Oregon). The woman who excelled at her craft and really made it worth sending the resoles to nevada sadly passed on! She had finished half the pairs in the box and an obvious newb filled in for the rest. Talk about your proof in the pudding in terms of how quality and not quality a resole can go. The few pairs that had been finished before the tragic event - dynomite. Some of the best resoles we as a group had ever seen. And the rest - the 3 or 4 pairs done up by the next in line > horrible -absolute crap that resulted in delams and complete disaster until the next resole. Just goes to show you how important a good resoler is. Being in Oregon I've gone thru companies in Portland, Bend, I've had good and bad experiences in state but typically have to send out of state... once again, I wish you the best of luck getting your shoes back take care

I second bluepanda - congratulations in not letting your disability keep you out of climbing. Heres an ultra inspiring video within the same vein:

Thats why it has two tie in points keep looking and speculating on what the harness does BASED ON PHOTOS do you own one JoeR? So how again are you giving feedback on what they do and don't do? And you've put how many different kinds of harnesses on how many different kids again? Why do you speak when you have no real input on issues other than to troll? Troll away I guess. It seems pretty ridiculous when you obviously don't have a kid climber or any real input about kids harnesses out of a lack in using them....

Its where the looping braces more effectively that you eliminate negative space between the shoulders and torso. The simba combines zero padding, zero contour and negative space when the lil climber goes from standing in the harness to actually arrested on the harness. The fraggles contours padding into the "looping patterns" not only make it a million times easier to get on little ones, as it gives clear step in points and then backpacks the upper half easily over, it also eliminates that dead space between the should and torso - that even when you fine tune the simba, going from not weighting the harnesses to weighting it, there seems to also be that negative space that equals movement within the harness on lower = bruising around shoulders where the straps go. Its minor - but the buckles on the simba and other like designs pinch into kiddo. The buckles system with the fraggile takes that metal away from pinching points on weighting. Getting on and off, so much more intuitive and easier. And when your putting a harness on and off a 3 yr old it makes a difference. These are subtle improvements. And to the adult climber would seem kind of ridiculous, but kids want to climb even more comfortably and they make a bigger deal about pinch points on the lower. Given the fraggle is a less expensive product that introduces padding and better ergonomics, why stand against progress being a thinner webbing and more pad it the fraggile may break down over the years more and may not translate as a hand me down harness - but who goes kid to kid with hand-me down harnesses? Replace em for your kids just like you do for yourself - it is webbing after all the extra tie in on the back - the company says its for particular terrain. I think its just great for keeping the rope out their face. its a bit different lowering orientation with that tie-in point though

Uh no. Not at all. Uh I own both. Have both. They are completely different. Either go to a climbing shop, check one out, see your wrong or keep convincing yourself you can't possibly be wrong. Either way doesn't really matter. The harness is an all new design completely different and its awesome. I know because I've seen it in operation head to head harness vs. harness. You have? You've tried them both out? You've seen them both in operation?

thats cool. other parents might like a better product that costs less just as some who climb with only nuts and hexes for years stick with that and others choose to go with cams and active protection its all choices, making sure other parents know there are innovations to the kids harnesses just their are innovations to adult harnesses

the simba is an old outdated design. its whats been used in gyms for years. the fraggle is much more innovative and breaks the old design assumptions that simba and other designs reinforce. ping-pong inside of a webbing chamber. tie in options with the fraggle put the knot and rope away from the kids face and out of their way, so they can focus on what they are supposed to, holds and climbing, not knot and rope to distract

at 6 and 42 lbs your kiddo may be a bit big for this: http://www.backcountrygear.com/fraggle-harness.html but for reference or other parent climbers getting there little ones out on rock - you've got to check this harness out. I worked in climbing gyms for some years, did a lot of b-day parties - the standard designs that have not reworked the concept are outdated and can be awkward and often leaves kids ping-pogging around in a webbing cage. the harness is great, getting on and off is a cinch for my daughter which is vital cause kids hate hanging around in a harness worse than adults

Not offended,upset, etc... - Just wanted to clarify Mr.Orton, because when your cutting and pasting sometimes context is lost - I wasn't advocating we have "climbing rangers" everywhere like they do at COR and Castle Rock - What I was implying was that as a would-be route developer and potential bolter - Be as thoughtful with your own Bolting projects as they are in ranger situations. Be your own editor and advocate for quality bolting. The point I was trying to make was that just because we don't have climbing rangers making these approvals doesn't mean that local climbers shouldn't have the same standard of excellence when it comes to the process. Lean on your fellow climbers. I don't think it would be good for there to be climbing rangers everywhere, and I don't think that will ever happen because whether the government cares about bolting practices or not - they don't have the resources to put a ranger at a every bolted crag. But, that doesn't our development standards should suffer. We should be our own climbing rangers, bolting with the same informed process on bolting as at COR and Castle - IN HOUSE, handling it by climbers for climbers. Just wanted to clarify that that was what I meant in comparing the COR situation with bolting. I agree with you Mr.Orton that if it came down to having park rangers at every crag because we as climbers prove ourselves un-self manageable - that would a be travesty.

Me too! Rad –

greg i like your encapsulation, but how about with bolts generally- If your a would-be developer, you don't have to feel like your reinventing the wheel in isolation - Pull from others, communicate with climbers as experienced and MORE experienced than yourself the old adage "measure twice and cut once" should be applied hundredsfold within bolting and climbing because the rock can never revert to its previous form once its been bolted "measure a million times, then bolt once" have any bolting project be such an overthought process you couldn't possibly have a made a mistake and if you did you had peers along the way willing to step in and tell you where your off just like the personalities and the me attitudes tend to blow up on this website - bolts all to often tend to be a "me" oriented affair. In the end it should be about bolting for the community as bill coe so efficently summed up in his response. Like Bill, I'm a crack-aholic, but I still bolt routes in my region for the greater good of climbers here who like face climbing more...

julian - yes -seen it time and time again at F-stone. I can still remember from leading group trips for OSU, we made a point of utilizing Flagstone those years cause there is no better place to teach avoiding back and z-clips than the f-stone...

Thats a really good point! There has been over a decade of "chest-beating" and complaining about Flagstone and zero chopping or retrobolting in response to whats been identified to many as "over-bolted". I can only guess that a. your never going to take away the signs that a bolt hole was there. A disgusting marred, hypoxed over bolt-hole, or even worse if they glued it in is likely never going to get back to the rock it was before, so why bother trying and b. Maybe Flagstone in that decade plus has served its purpose as an example of Bad Bolting. Maybe as long as Flagstones the symbolic mistake, others can see that mistake and develop with better standards moving forward. Maybe its better to have one bad example, that developers can point to and use as a cautionary tale, rather than a series of poorly bolted crags? Castle Rock in ID comes up yet again - They have the infamous "Climbing Comp" tragedy where excessive bolts and modular holds bolted and glued to a crag equaled closure of the Castle Rock area. With it re-opened - that wall still shows signs of the event and what goes wrong when climbing ethics and standards are completely thrown out the window. Now it acts as the symbolic mistake, just like our Flagstone

Moolack will never have bolts and the community behind moolack will stand behind that bolt-less standard and any bolt that shows up will be chopped. Flagstone (and some callahans) is an atrocity because there shouldn't be bolts specifically for "children's routes". Children should climb, but they shouldn't have disgustingly overly bolted routes made for them. I have a daughter, she'll clip bolts when shes old and big enough to handle "reasonable" bolt length routes. I won't waste her time clipping bolts every two feet as a kid, she can stay on top-rope or boulder. Who is in a hurry for their kid to lead? Was it worth all those bolts and all the negative attention thats been brought to Flagstone. 1. Appropriate bolt spacing is subjective - but most climbers worth their salt can identify when a bolts been placed a. at a stance reasonable to clip, b. prudent give the last piece of protection below said bolt In a perfect world routes would be bolted as Anglin and others did on-lead at Menagerie. The bolts are where there are stances practical for bolting (also practical for clipping) and there isn't excess because excess would mean a ridiculous day bolting for the FAist. If a route is bolted on rappel - have the creativity and awareness to understand where a bolt would have been potentially placed on lead, where a stance would have occured because that same stance will work for route-leaders. Climb the route a couple of times on tr if your rap-bolting make sure you have the best places for bolts where the leader is assuming the amount of risk you have in mind for the route, but are avoiding R or X situations. Bolt as little as you need to. 3. Its always appropriate to chop bolts at a place where any and all bolts would be unwelcome (i.e. Moolack) Look at the situation at Castle Rock near City of Rocks - there they have a climbing ranger with eons of experience with route development. New route goes thru a formal process on paper with images and proposed bolts. He reviews, he climbs the route, makes edits changes theoretical placements of bolts based on whats practical - he then hands back edited and approved route paperwork. Its then on the developer to bolt the route within these terms. If your going to bolt a route - be experienced enough with routes to make the kind of quality decisions that our friend Castle Rock Climbing Ranger has to make on behalf of others. We're lucky in Oregon we don't have to go thru this formal process to new-route - but that doesn't mean our routes shouldn't go thru the same standard of quality meticulously deriving the best scenario for a new route with minimal and safe bolts. Take the time and pull from others BEFORE you bolt, have a plan that looks good for bolt-spacing not just to yourself but to other experienced climbers around you. What you may think of as "run-out" or "over-bolted" may be completely different from what the next person thinks, but if you pull from multiple opinions and get a range of values BEFORE you bolt, you'll probably get that spacing worked out better