MervGriffin

I doubt if "hundreds" of climbers have been up there, but whatever....a bunch of folks climbing it and liking it doesn't make it any less bogus or illegal. "Shut up" doesn't enhance your argument. There might be. You don't know this. If they don't have it chopped (perhaps ultimately by its "creators"?), then there are actually quite a number of folks who would support its removal. If you climb this "route", be safe, but also do so with the understanding that it is a questionable and controversial route, and by climbing it, you are implicitly endorsing its legitimacy.

No. I didn't get that impression at all. No, I haven't thought much of your "offer", because I dismissed it as one of the lamest things I've ever read on this web-site. Is that so? Haven't been on it this year....wasn't on it last year....or was it the year before? I don't really remember, but I do love that route so maybe I'll blast up there later this Fall. Maybe you can watch and learn? I'll teach you how to avoid or skip bolts. Or are you one of these people who saw an apparition of me up there soloing everytime you walked under the wall during the early '90's?

Keep your eyes off the trail and the "route" isn't too hard to miss. Sure...if you consider a line of closely-spaced rap-bolts festooned with abandoned quick-draws in the woods impressive. Did you remove the litter? Has it ever been "climbed"? What about sieging it into submission? Glad you had a nice trip, Dr. Chuck. Some may scoff at The Tooth but it's a lot of fun and a nice workout. Sorry you had to experience the eye-sore on the way up to the peak.

Lots of interesting ideas and personalities involved in all of this! Thanks, The 'bone, for bringing up this topic! Here are a few quotes that caught my interest along with some commentary. I care. So, can I leave all my garbage there because few will likely see it? I care. Warren did some giant climbs, but he ain't the king. That naughty little route on Garfield has sure attracted quite a bit of action! That's the STUPIDEST cliché I've heard since "The best climber is the one having the most fun!" For more similar shallow "inspirational" babblings, read the article on the Dihedral Wall in one of the latest climbing rags. Tommy-baby...stick to climbing them hard-cracks, quit reading those Nike ads and get yourself a home-study philosophy course for your rare day-off. And these universally acknowledged right reasons are???? Sad, Peter. Very sad. Why argue against power drills??? Haven't you noticed the oppositon among some climbers against such drills and against other forms of bolting??? If there are efforts to change the law to allow power drilling, than I hope there is first a HUGE debate as to the legitimacy of such and similar activities. And I'd like the Fed's to hear BOTH sides of the argument! - Merv

Catbirdseat? He not turning in his Rainier blue-bags?

Well said. You've got to believe that anybody (except possibly a Freshman at a third-rate college) attempting to fake these docs would make the minimal effort to match technology with the doc's creation date. Read the news today? MY BAD!!!!!

His Lou-ness IS BIG!!!! No exaggeration necessary! Check it out!!!

I didn't know that but I suspected it, so thanks for the clarification. Yes, Mr. 'bone, I got a point to make. It has to do with this whole thing about where to draw the line. It's like stealing a cookie from a large jar when no one is looking: it's still stealing. Some people might claim outrage if the activity is within the realm of an official, government-declared wilderness region, but at the same time, think it's O.K. if it's a few feet over the border or it's on something that is less cool than Prussik or Dragontail. I think the whole activity needs to be questioned. As "pope" once satirically noted, some alpine bolters would strongly object to snowmobiles riding up mountain valleys, but at least when the snowmobiles are gone, their noise and tracks disappear.

Hey Potty-Mouth. Do you work for RMI? Do you speak to the clients that way? Do you also regularly make disparaging comments about "independent climbers" as many RMI guides do?

I am asking the question of the fellow quoted above, who seems to have some instinct to be irate, but at the same time might make exceptions for his own activities near Snoqualmie Pass. So again, "how were those bolts at Alpental placed? And I don't really care if it's technically just outside of a designated wilderness boundary...it's still two miles from a road." Also, what The 'bone said.

I thought we were only talking about issue 1 here? Maybe I am wrong but hand-drilling bolts in the wilderness seems almost a non-issue, same as leaving a nut or a cam on a route. I mean, "it happens" but is hardly a threat to access? How were those bolts at Alpental placed? And I don't really care if it's technically just outside of a designated wilderness boundary...it's still two miles from a road.

Erden: Watch the film "Kon-Tiki" and you'll see Thor Heyerdahl and his raft-mates catching sharks by hand. A few years ago, Thor himself gave me an impromptu demonstration (albeit without a shark present)and insisted it was a good time and that one should stay away from the "biting end" of the flailing shark. It seems to me that it involved grabbing them by the tail and flinging them on deck. There are, of course, tastier fish to eat, but shark meat ain't too bad.

When your car slows down, and when that joint is nothing more than a pile of residual ashes and a fleeting buzz, it's done with. With drilling, by hand or by machine, you've left a permanent mark that others will continue to encounter in perpetuity unless extraordinary means are taken to restore the damage.

I see that in The 'Bone's poll that there is the option of "No - I would not rat on any climber". Everybody seems to be a climber today and no, "it ain't all good" nor are climbers "all good". Just because somebody shares a weird sport with me doesn't mean I have an obligation or some sort of special bond to protect their miserable butts when they're behaving badly. And good chance today, too, that if your gear gets ripped off, it's another "climber". The "brotherhood of the rope" is a vague memory. P.S. Check out the bolt-restrictions in Joshua Tree for a glimpse of the future. J-Tree Bolting

A LITTLE HISTORY: The "Alpine Buddy" concept was initiated by "Dwayner" and "pope" a couple/three years ago to give a nice and supportive high-five to various denizens in the climbing neighborhood. One early recipient was nominated for being "effortless cool". SPEAKING OF BANNINGS.... Ironically, it seems that our own "cool buddy" was instrumental in having "Dwayner" himself banned (or at least recommended that he be put on temporary time-out ) for his "manipulative" and "disruptive" behavior in which "every post" became a discussion about bolts and/or ethics. LOOKING BACK... In retrospect, we made a poor decision with this whole "Alpine Buddy" thing. We dropped the concept in short order anyway because as with most well-intentioned things around here, it quickly devolved into a downward spray-spiral.