minx

no WMD= lie...see...that requires some assumptions to be made...1) that bush knwe any 'proof' was false...and 2) that there are no weapons of mass destruction... it has only been 2 weeks... we haven't found bin laden in 2 years! chew on that... no matter how this discussion is had, there will be some assumptions. i ASSUME that since bush and powell went to the UN claiming that there were a LOT of WMD they had some reasonable intelligence data to support that. i ASSUME that since the weapons inspectors told Bush they hadn't found anything and were reluctant to say that they expected to find anything, that Bush just disregarded them b/c he had firm data that supported that decision. For me it comes down to the fact that the day before the war started it was about WMD, the day after the war started it was about liberation. Perhaps he had bad information perhaps not...either way he was still lying in my opinion. He fed us on reason and then changed w/no explanation. He was playing us, no doubt about that. I really don't think this was about WMD or liberty. Bin laden is a single person. People are much more mobile and smaller than most labs that would produce WMD....so bite me!

you have seen no proof that bush et al lied? this is simple...no WMD = lie you'll notice that as soon as the war started the focus shifted from WMD to liberating people. Bush spent all fall fibbing

what's wrong w/being a bitch?

don't ask ... just take the last piece already. EXACTLY!

"if you have to ask then you probably shouldn't do it" saucy is such a good word

I realize this is total thread drift but: re: soccer moms and competitive kids. watch out it starts early! I firmly believe that competition even at a young age is a good thing. There are lessons to be learned from losing as well as winning. If we continue w/this everybody is a winner attitude our kids miss out on valuable life lessons. HOWEVER- i HATE that my 2nd grader's new soccer couch is agressively serious. He e-mailed me w/a list of expectations that seem a bit high for a bunch of 8 year olds. Basically told me if we weren't ready to take soccer seriously we should go find a different league. Whatever! Too

no he won't. trask is the vortex besides, they probably won't let his date...er....goat into the sloop

This is the biggest part of finding a pack that works for me! If it doesn't fit my shoulders it's a hopeless disaster. The hip belt hasn't been as much of an issue for my shape but i have tiny shoulders. If they shoulder straps are too wide the load won't ride well at all.

so explain why the speed limit on the interstate goes from 70 in Washington to 55 in Oregon. does crossing into Oregon make you that much of a worse driver you need to slow down 15 mph? YES!

Depends on what type of use she's going to get out of it. I have small shoulders so it's a bitch to find a pack. I've got a small lowe alpine pack that i picked up on sale someplace that's great. I was really surpised. Works well for a day pack. I had a gregory that i wasn't super fond of but small enough to fit decent. I'd say anything that's a "small" will work. For many things i find things that are made for kids work better than the adult sizes.

what are you talking about??? Nothing better than having a lacey pair of panties on long trip. Just a little something feminine can make the countless days w/o a good shower a little nicer.

i'm not going to try and sell anybody on the caliber of 38 BUT it does have it's own set of advantages as have been pointed out. It's really convenient after work for a lot of people. The routes are short which isn't a plus in my mind most of the time. H/e after work this can be a fun thing and for new and/or out of shape folks this is a plus too. One of my climbing partners doesn't do anything but sport climb so it works. It's not ideal but it does have it's place. I 'm not going to "plan" a trip to 38 but sometimes it's the best options. The area CBS mentioned is fun. That .11a he mentioned (enjoyable climb!) has a .10d and .10a right next to it. (lets not quibble over ratings) I've had varying degrees of succes on these (maybe i need a more active belayer ) but I've had fun on all of them. Guess all i'm saying is that it's a place to climb and that's not a bad thing.

a few years back, my ISO and I get up early to head to tieton. I pack lunch and misc. he's in charge of gear. We stop for gas at which point i realize i haven't grabbed all the money i thought i had. We spend a good 30 min arguing about the fact that were a couple hundred miles from home and we've got $8. (we had lunch and plenty of gas) One of those melodramatic moments when he insists that we should just go home. I convince him otherwise. We hike up to where we had planned on climbing only to find out we had no harnesses. That was the biggest waste of a day!

What bastards! I think we should slam them for not being climbing gods like us! I don't think anybody posting is thinking that. I certainly am not opposed to anybody learning to climb with or with out the help of an organization. Aren't we all still learning something? I think what hacks off most people is the attitude. I doubt many people care what these groups do when the invade a closed ski area. Too often it's not an area like this. Its a crag or a route that is fequented by lots of people. A large group can ruin this for other people. In addition there is an attitude of that seem somewhat prevalent with the mountaineers that many people find irritating. Any way other than theirs is wrong, no one but them is safe enough and everyone should join. Encountering this on a trip just sux. It's the attitude as much as anything some find disturbing.

Or large open areas outside of climbing routes (such as the gulleys near the lower parking lot at timberline.) Can someone please explain to me how this is getting in the way of everyone else climbing, or why learning should be ridiculed? b/c this w/e they will be on the tooth and swarming over commonwealth basin, most likely disturbing plenty of smaller parties.

hey, dryad has posted in the climbing partner forums. I don't think she's only relying on the mounties.

where are these large areas where they don't bother other people? i'm really really curious

yes

something like that. but i don't want my w/e owned by my yard!

mail box trail is good and muddy right now. I was there yesterday. enjoy!

my new place has no yard that involves maintenance! all natural yard

is there any need for non-alcoholic beverages? i could probably bring some soda or the like along w/some beer.

kinda like the way the bush administration has decided to stand on a particular reason we invaded iraq? WMD? Liberate a repressed society? shhh....not oil or economics... Really doesn't matter....whatever the public opinion of the day is If they paraded out WMD from the desert, i'd still question the motives of this war. Hopefully this will turn out to be a good thing for the Iraqi people no matter what ill conceived reason brought this about.

I shouldn't laugh but that was funny! Sorry AG! Congrats on being out of school for the year

#1 thing today listing to the moooooiiiiiiinks on the other side of the cube wall complain about their health/weight and then order a taco sald w/extra dressing, gab on the phone for an hour and complain they don't have time to use the gym.