Rocks

Bob's Your Uncle has about ten feet of hard climbing near the top where the crack gets narrow. The rest of the climb is about 5.9 maybe some 5.10A. Remember routes are rated on the hardest move of the climb - its called the Yosemite rating system. I've lead Pumpline and it is so short how do you compare it to Red M&Ms? Pumpline is an easier lead than Red M&Ms. And Andy is correct it is harder to stay in the seam on Red M&Ms, but it is still hard even when you go to the right. Most people who TR go to the right, that's what all the chalk is about. Gyselinck head to the Valley (you know the Big Ditch, aka Yosemight) and lead Vanishing Point - you may become a 5.11C climber! The climb is 165 feet long all 5.7 with one wicked move up high. If a guide book gets you within one step of your opinion of the grade its doing good. As you can tell from above its very subjective. Climbing at lots of different areas will give you a good feel for ratings. I think areas that were pioneered by Jeff Thomas, New York climber who moved here in the 70s, have the hardest climbing for the rating. These areas are Smith Rocks and Beacon. Go climb Blown Out, Free for Some, Second Wind, Stepping Wolf, awesome climbs all at Beacon (but its closed now for birds nesting), continous hard climbing, rating is generally on, but never ever over rated. Good discussion.

Another thing to consider at Vantage is the rock tends to dinner plate in the cracks. This can give some climbers options from just jamming by allowing an occasional face climbing move. In Leavenworth you really need to jam - hands and feet in the crack as edges are pretty rare in the cracks and on the face. As for the ratings, here is an example. R.O.T.C. in Leavenworth is 5.11C and it is an easier lead then Red M&M's in my opinion after leading both. Also, Kramer upgraded Easter Overhang from 10A to 10C in his last edition and I still think its 10A. But its wide, and some climbers don't like wide cracks.

gyselinck Red M&M is 5.12a if you led it, because you have to put in your own gear like, H.B an R.P. hard to places to. But if you top rope it, like most people do it,5.11......

Routes are shown from the direction you approach the wall that is why some are from the left and some are from the right.

You guys are talking about Red Rocks go do this: Time up 5.12a, on Brownstone Wall; Put up buy Uriostes in 1985 Here in Washingtion,South Early Winter Spire, The Dolphin Chimeny 5.10c Frenchman Coulee:Sex With Vegtables, 5.10D,The top half. Seven Virgins and a Mule, 5.7 Index, Lizard Route,5.8+ Tieton River,on Moon Rock, Internal Bliss 5.7 The List go on? Rocks

Saturday/ Sunday Climb overhanging knobs at Fossil Rock.

Kieth Wish I was up there. But I will head to Fossil rock instead, its closer.

Just last week a friend asked us the same question, here is the tick list we gave 'em. They were interested in moderate trad and harder sport, and they never had vistited the awesome RED ROCKS of Utah. In order from driving through the park. It’s a big one-way loop, and the cliffs I listed will be in your guide. There are several guides available. Second Pullout (yes that's what is called) The Black Corridor (Upper and Lower - both are good) We've done most the routes here, all are worth doing. One pitch sport climbs grades 5.9 to easy 5.11. Can be in the shade as the corridor is narrow, but routes near the end should be in the sun. At lower on your left three new routes not in the Select guide go at 5.11b, 5.10c, 5.10A (facing wall right to left at the mouth of the corridor - all were awesome.) Sweet Pain Wall (could be in the shade - afternoon?) Routes are hard, but Sweet Pain is awesome 12a Sandstone Quarry Area The Running Man Wall Area (sunny) Some really awesome sport climbs here, we only had time to do a few. Red Heat 5.10C Plastic People 5.10B (funky, but awesome) White Spring (sunny?) Tunnel Vision 5.7 trad, six pitches - popular get an early start. Group Therapy 5.7 trad, but pitch two is really 5.8, six pitches just to right of the route above. (not many do this route, a good choose if Tunnel Vision is too crowded) Dark Shadows Area (shade, could be cold) Dark Shadows 5.8 trad, four pitches - awesome - rap the route South Fork of Pine Creek Canyon Cat in the Hat 5.7 just a couple moves mostly 5.5 & 5.6, trad five pitches. Rap route, fun, easy approach. Popular start early. Juniper Canyon, Rose Tower (should be sunny most the way) Olive Oil 5.7 trad, awesome route, removed and usually no one on this climb. Approach beta is wrong, hike straight up at drainage and stay on right side in gully. Longer approach allow 40-45 minutes. Walk off so you have to climb the entire route, unless you want to leave a lot of gear! Get an early start. Brownstone Wall The Nightcrawler 5.10A trad, take some big friends. Awesome, rap route, longer approach, 45-60 minutes. The Black Dagger 5.8 trad - did not do this route, but our friends did and said it was really nice. This is a cool area up this canyon and slope. Oak Creek Canyon Solar Slab, 5.6 trad, nine pitches - come early very popular, walk off Beulah's Book 5.8 trad, I remember climbing three pitches and rapping - can finish up Solar Slab John Nevada 5.9, trad this route is just to the right of Beulah's and is not in the select guide. All three of these routes are awesome - and in the sun I think. Best thing to do is a long route first thing in the morning and if you have time left over hit the sport walls at the top of this list. Black Velvet Canyon will be too cold I think so I left it out. As for hiking the big ditches - both are awesome. Wish I was heading out.