RobBob

Hey Iain, You can have that ole windbag Byrd...wait a minute, I want him. Lookit all the money he has recruited to WVA. It's unbelieveable!

I'm sorry I missed all that horseshit on this thread yesterday. Trask, you've seen both sides of the fence. Don't tell me you really prefer the ups and downs, and the dry spells, of singledom.

I guess the next time we have a worldwide cold-weather cycle, we will subsidize the airline industry to build more planes and fly them. Here's to the next bolide strike...may it hit the middle east.

Mtngoat, you were the one who attacked Iain, who was making a plain, cogent point about Ashcroft. You did it with sarcasm and ridicule. What do you think you deserved in return? Iain's point was the same one I was making. I don't think he, I or anyone else on this board wants to philosophize about the relativity of morality in various religions. The rest of us were debating first the likely practical application of citizen intell collected by our government, and then once again the fitness of Ashcroft in his job, in light of the principles that our nation is supposed to be founded on. Since you brought it up, amending the constitution because of omission versus amending it in direct opposition to the clearly stated intentions of its framers are two wildly different things. Saying they are the same is...silly. Whether they were pilgrims, Amish, Catholics, Buddhists, or whatever, a lot of people came to the colonies/United States because it offered the hope of freedom to the religiously oppressed. Iain's point is valid. We have an individual who is, in light of this, ill-suited for his job. He is a religious fundamentalist, a zealot on the scale of the average US citizen. And either he is using his zealous beliefs as a prism for choosing what to focus his work on, or he ain't too smart. Or both.

Mtngoat, read the Jefferson quote. He is a more eloquent and thoughtful speaker on religion and government in the US than you are, IMO (also less smug and sarcastic). He, Adams, Franklin, Washington, and others were deists, and light-years ahead of the likes of Ashcroft, and, apparently, you.

John Ashcroft's homework tonight should be to memorize: "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." - T. Jefferson

The affairs of man are much more predictable, and related to basic natural things like climatic patterns, than most men and women would like to acknowledge to themselves. Periods of violent upheaval, disease periods, 'dark ages' repeat themselves through history. Hell, even mini-cycles like the stock corrections of the late 80s and 90s (Milken & Boesky then, Enron now) will continue.

Iain...ESP!

Dear God, Please deliver me and my freedom-loving brethren from the likes of earnest, not-so-bright, religious zealots like John Ashcroft. Yur Faithful Sheep, Rob

Hey Freeclimb, FOIA ain't what it's cracked up to be anyhow. I made a FOIA request about a federal grant that I believed a competitor was misusing, and after two appeals, I didn't get shit.

So far, the progression of recent technology has been: -develop technology to allow our labor force to compete with lower-cost labor abroad. This lasts a few years or months. -find a way to use lower-cost labor to operate the more-advanced technology (foreign workers here; overseas switchboards; move factories overseas) -back to the drawing board for our labor force

We are leapfrogging forward in the 'technology' department, with probably less and less-grounded operating philosophy. Example: While we in the US debate cloning humans, some Italian claims to already be doing it...to Hell with debate, says he! Italian technology being what it is , he's probably not really doing it, but someone will, long before the balance of the educated world agrees that it's an acceptable thing. What's really sad is that very well-educated scientists can slip into the value-less abyss.

Iain is correct. We have our kids reading at 4 or 5 now, and learning how to design buildings with CADD. But they don't on average know as much theory behind that CADD, because there isn't time to learn it...and they sure don't know how to do the math that engineers did with sliderules 50 years ago.

Good old Sperm Thurmond. Of course he, like several old rascals of his era, turned on a dime when they saw the political climate changing. He hired the first black staffer in SC, I believe. And he personally knows almost everyone in South Carolina.

Dilettante (note spelling )- A dabbler in the arts. Maybe she meant to say she was a Dilbert.

Oh, I forgot to add GregW/ cleaning his guns...

This, AlpineK, is a provocative statement that I agree with wholeheartedly. While I am an optimist, I don't buy this polyanna bullshit about how humanity has 'improved.' Western society is on balance more peaceful, stable, and advanced because world conditions have permitted it to be so during the past 50 years. Wait until we have for instance a major climate change (no, I'm not talking about man-induced change, I'm talking about the inevitable, longterm climate changes that occur), change that causes worldwide agriculture to convulse for a few years. Then we will see barbarian cultures in motion. But better to be a barbarian and a winner than a loser.

Okay, wayne1112, you put the bait out there...what the hell are you up to? Among my modest gumby goals- -improve backcountry skiing -climb Mt Hood, & some other stuff -triathlon

AlpineK, I agree with you, not because I think that there are evildoers in government, but because I believe there are stupid people in all large bureaucracies (especially government). Earnest, stupid people who gather momentum on an issue, and end up running off the track with their zeal.

Maybe there was a glitch last night when I checked the Who's Online...this is what I saw: Username / Location trask / surfing RetroRaunch website Dr Flash Amazing/ bound to closet climbing wall Allison / sipping Celestial Seasonings and baking herb brownies Muffy the WSer / in online spelling bee Caveman &mikeadam / barfighting TLG/ searching 'Men of Alaska' website

I must say that while Jackass had its moments, overall it was disappointing. Too much of an S&M tone, rather than the juvenile pranks that made the show, IMHO. And I don't ever want to see a movie with no girls in it again.

Guesso... has the ring of somebody who's been away from home too long!

So my kids are belting out the words to one of their favorite kid-songs on Thanksgiving, and my dad the WWII vet says to me "You know where that song comes from, don't you?" Sure enough, the google search reveals: Do your balls hang low? Do they swing to and fro? Can you tie 'em in a knot? Can you tie 'em in a bow? Can you throw 'em o'er your shoulder, Like a Continental soldier? Can you do the double shuffle, When your balls hang low? Chorus Ting-a-ling, God damn, Find a woman if you can. If you can't find a woman, Find a clean old man. If you're ever in Gibraltar, Take a flying fuck at Walter. Can you do the double shuffle, When your balls hang low?

This is one of the most troubling incidents I've read about. I have hesitated to post about this after I found it a two months ago. I was trying to convince someone I know not to go to Saudi, and looking for supporting evidence. Well, I found it. You can read the summary here (warning, it is disturbing): (summary story of William Sampson) The Hell of it is that bin Laden is the westerners' suspect in this. This guy is a climber, too, because somewhere on the web I saw a pic of him and his father on an Alpine summit. Very troubling.

Looks good! One slight glitch that I've had in the past, that continues with the new board, is that since I installed ZoneAlarm, I get no movement (graemlins, alpine kitty, etc.). I miss seeing the movement. Anybody got an idea how to fix this?