beefcider

woa. thanks for that post man, looks like I got one of the bum tools. FYI, I got it at MEC. Chris

As far as I know it's illegal to carry a firearm into a national park or a national monument. If it is, and you do decide to go postal on them then you are essentially breaking the same laws they are and therefore it becomes a battle of the criminals, which is to say that it won't really solve the issue of keeping snowmobozos off of the volcanoes. I know it sounds dumb, but next time, go up to them and tell them your bro has a sled just like that one. shake lame-o's hand and ask him his name then cheeseball him into posing for a few shots. works every time. "duuuuuude, check me out maaaaaaaaan". Then send the photos to any and all agencies you can stand sending them to. Eventually, they will get busted. Yeah, it's costs you a few bucks but what doesn't these days. Better yet, write the NFS and the NPS every damn week demanding they enforce the laws. The legal system does work, you just have to work at it. Every idiot won't get busted, but if enough people start documenting cases of this and reporting it, it will get attention.

quote: To second Steve's respnse, the mounties require that all basic students complete a conservation duty. In the past, I believe, a great majorty of these requirements have been accomplished through joining WTA work parties. How many of you have EVER done trail maintenance? Look, Steve only brought that up because I said that the mounties only promote restoration of thier own cabins/clubhouses, etc. I still get the monthly newsletter and have yet to see a front page or any page for that matter, article about cleaning up trails, approaches or anything like it. They may require it but they don't promote it. All Steve did was take my post and make it his by saying that we should support the WTA and the Access Fund by supporting the mountaineers. What the hell does that mean? If I'm going to support the WTA, which I do, I'll go to the WTA, not the mountaineers. His invitation to help support other organizations through his was idiotic. He was just covering his ass because what I said is essentially true. The concept of conservation and restoration of the areas they use is NOT something they promote. If any of you are mountaineers and tell me that you are using "that route today for a class" you can expect to see the gleaming white asses and the rusty sherrif's badges of me and my climbing partner many times as we ascend the route you claim as yours. Anyone else will just see the cheeks and no chocolate starfish.

The dudes on the sleds might not care about the rules but you can always snap a few photos and turn them in. I did it once in Colorado when I caught a bunch of Air Force cadets (all going into intelligence, mind you) ripping down aspen trees, green ones at that, for the ragin' bonfire duuuuuude. I got them all together for a group shot and then told them I was going to send the photos along to the NPS. The next morning, I got to clean up all of the beer bottles and half burned potato chip bags for my trouble but I'm pretty sure they we're booted from the academy. Point being: you can always do something about it. If nothing else, contact the ranger at St. Helens and let them know.

they (USFS) got my money once for the permit and I've been using the same datached, wallet sized card on my dashboard ever since. the expiration date is in the other side and until they change the card type, I'll probably avoid a ticket. yeah, stick it to the man! User fees suck, bad admin of the collected fees suck more. Too many localities are robbing people of "user fees" to justify their being on land they alreasy paid taxes to be on. wait, that's not what this thread is about. I apologize. In the mean time, I'll pay if I get caught.

quote: What exaggerated modifications are you willing to make to the rock to guarantee this access to "everybody"? He's gonna make all of the approaches wheelchair accessible AND bolt the ramps every six inches.

quote: Traditionally, the style in which the first ascent was done dictates future ascents (i.e., going from nailing to placing clean gear). This, in a sense, gives the first ascensionist some sort of ownership. I understand and even abide by this, what I'm saying is that tradition is getting beat up by people that are bolt happy and saying that it is wrong won't stop it. Respect dictates that you leave it alone but that isn't always the case. Even if I'm not for it, traditions change. That's why I suggested that some crags be left for trad and some for sport. The question is who will decide this. I also agree that bolt hangers on the rock will get the Land Managers twitching. Like I said, I'm not for bolting or retro-bolting, but going out and chopping the lines only to have them re-bolted is going to get just as much or more attention. It seems inevitable that the people who control the land will try and regulate this at some point unless the general climbing community can agree on the crags to bolt or leave alone.

Has anyone heard of criminal charges being filed against people who have sccumulated multiple infractions? I know that the Washington State Patrol will come and arrest you if you accumulate unpaid traffic tickets, can or has the USFS done the same thing? I can tell you this: getting something removed from your federal record, even just a misdemeanor is a major pain in the ass.

I'm gonna have to agree with Pope on the trash issue. I spend alot of time packing out others trash, be it a nest of ratty slings on a fixed anchor to flat out garbage at campsites. the question is: how do you keep a restored route from being re-bolted?

Erik, As I said, I'm not for bolting or retro-bolting routes. I use existing bolts but often find them scary as hell.Let me rephrase one of my statements. I'll probably like bolts less when I learn to set my own pro. I agree that there are alot of routes that need to be restored and am even willing to help do so. What I'm getting at is that we can go and clean the bolts, restore the routes and leave the area spiffy. It just seems that a real community effort is needed to keep rap bolt happy folk from going out and drilling the routes again and causing further damage. My statement about rights from the FA are just a point in being realistic, that's all. I'm all for going and restoring some of the routes and I'll hopefully learn something.

I agree with will on that idea that the issue in general cannot be decided by the minority of climbers that is represented here. Personally, I like bolts for now. When I can climb 5.10 trad I'll probably hate them. here are my thoughts: 1) We have to keep in mind that most of the land we're talking about is public. If people start ripping out bolts it's going to get noticed by the officials who run the public lands. In Leavenworth this is Chelan County. Trust me, you don't want to deal with them. They will shut the whole area down for an extensive and inconclusive study that restricts climbers from using the land. Same goes for the NPS and the NFS. 2) As has been said earlier, by many others, cc.com represents a minority of the climbers using the area(s) mentioned. 3) The person who has the FA does not own the rock or the route and that means they really don't have any say in what happens to it whether they like it or not. This is not saying that they don't deserve respect but seriously, anyone who thinks that they should be consulted because they got the FA isn't seeing the big picture. Just because Hillary/Norgay got the FA on Everest doesn't give them the right to regulate the mountain, even if they wanted to. What happens after the person who got the FA dies? Can the route be bolted then? The argument of "I did it first, it's mine" really doesn't get a person anything except a bit of notice and a lot of headaches when people bolt the line that supposedly belongs to them. 4) bolting, retro-bolting and bolt removal all cause rock damage. Wasn't that the point of so-called "clean climbing"? Here is a scenario: I go and do and FA on an obscure but rad line and then someone comes and bolts it. I go out and remove the bolts leaving permanent damage to the rock. Someone comes along and re-bolts the line and it starts all over again. 5) there is a lot of talk about the lack of an actual "climbing community". so get one together. you really want to begin to solve this issue? Plan a large meeting (not at a bar), get organized and present your issues. Everyone has an opinion about this so get them together and let everyone decide it. Give everyone ample notice and let them become part of the community that will decide. 6) there are always going to be bolted lines and there will probably always be people needlessly retro-bolting lines. I think that if enough of the local climbers got together it is possible that some areas could be resrticted to trad or sport only. Again, this would take a major turnout and real respect for the choices made by the group. FYI: I don't bolt routes and never will. I'm not for retro-bolting either. I apologize for the long post and hopefully didn't contradict myself. This is a serious issue and will probably result in restriction of land use if it isn't solved by the people who use it. I'm sure that many will dissagree with me and so bring da heat. Damn, I needs me a shot of Johnnie Walker Blue Label...

awfully nice of you to let us know when you're going to be there. I may not always like the idea of 90 people planning a trip to clog up the area but hey, it's still a free country and I'll just plan on going on friday. thanks for the warning!

Unless you're in Darrington, then the local redneck gorilla has an average penis size of about 1 inch.

I agree that there are a way too many 'free tibet' stickers out there on the outbacks, on any car for that matter. That's why I went with strike fighter squadrons. Whenever I get freaked out by an ascent I remember that if my bro could land an F/A-18 on a carrier deck at night then I can get past it. As for the 'my other ride is your mom' sticker I got one for my bike and changed it to read: "I ride my mom" that always gets the looks

quote: OUTBACKS ARE FOR GIRLS. Oh yeah, my 4 cylinder import can go faster than your 4 cylinder import. Maaaaaaaaaaan.