Duchess

Not to drag out this beaten topic, but in regards to quote: Originally posted by Fairweather: What about people who are quite capable of "earning it" but just want to take their young children, or aging grandparent on a day hike or short overnighter? Many trips on the west side are now "mini-expeditions". The Tahoma Glacier was once a reasonable 2 day climb, but is now a four day trip. Opening this side back to those who work 5+ days per week is only reasonable.[ 03-06-2002: Message edited by: Fairweather ] People who just want to take their young children and aging grandparents already have TONS of opportunity and places to go. Hikers and climbers who love the deep wilderness have increasingly fewer. And, fairweather, i have climbed the tahoma glacier in two days, with the westside road closed, and it was one of the more beautiful climbing experiences i have ever had.

w, i think you are right on the money. i have spent a considerable amount of time on teh west side road, and nearly every occassion has brought me the delight of seeing bears, deer, evidence of cats, etc. this road has become a wildlife mecca. i cringe to think of the road reopening, and the wildlife displaced. the west side road, as stands, provides a wonderful way of getting away from the crowds for the people who WANT IT ENOUGH TO EARN IT.

sure mr. radon, it might be stupid to not carry tire chains when visiting rainier in the winter. but, i have spent a lot of time in the park in the winter, in my 4WD vehicle, and never even come close to needing them. and , the issue here is that the park turns people away who don't carry tire chains. people who drove from seattle or portland or further. people who weren't informed that tire chains were needed. and the park doesn't offer any alternative means to enter the park, such as a shuttle. that's the real issue here, at least in my eyes

Peter, the park's GMP is available online.

pasradise (5400') allegedly had 13" of new snow accumulate sat-sun.

quote: Originally posted by Fairweather: It is being abused by some groups and their lawers who hold sway over the National Park Service and other land mgmt agencies. that's one statement that i totally agree with. the esa definetly provides a legal excuse to preserve undisturbed land. just one final question, brian...where did you learn that they aren't repairing the bridge because of the esa/owl?

don't worry, fairweather, i don't feel particularly flamed. everyone is entitled to their own opinions regarding public land. and i will admit that i don't know a ton about the spotted owl situation at olympic, i am much more familiar with the sitation at mt. rainier... i think that it's important to realize that olympic was created as a national park relatively recently (as far as nat. parks are concerned). it, more than most parks such as rainier, yellowstone, yosemite, etc., was established to preserve wilderness and wild nature. and olympic does offer the largest chunk of some of the best-quality owl habitat left on this planet. surely you've seen the devestation that logging and clearcutting has caused just beyond the borders of olympic!! i am by no means suggesting that owls are super-ultra-sensitive to the slightest noise in the distance. and i will admit that i am not sure what restoration of the bridge would entail. i do know that it frequently involves the use of a helicopter and/or very heavy machinery. at rainier, getting hit by cars is the #1 known cause of mortality in the past decade!! spotted owls are entirely docile and curious about humans. i have stood less than ten feet away from a dozen of the guys. more importantly, though, spotted owls are extremely sensitive to disturbance when they are nesting and breeding. eggs are often found unhatched near disturbance sites. and in the interior of washington atleast, the numbers of young fledged is SO incredibly low that it is almost mind blowing. okay, i apologize. i don't want to sound like a flaming environmentalist, because i certainly am not. you are absolutely right when you say that the esa should be re-written. there are slews of problems with the current legislation and management. and you are absolutely right to assert the need for access. however, i stand by my position that olympic wasn't created for easy access. olympic was created more for the oldgrowth, for the rainforest, and for the owls than it was for us. and that's one of the reasons that olympic is so incredibly rugged and precious and why we all love it so much. finally, i would like to add that road restoration is thwarted by the same thing that plagues the entire park service this year--war. until the united states "brings an end to terror," i expect to see a lot of projects go unfinished. and i expect that a whole hell of a lot less people are going to be studying the owls. under this administration, we'll never learn how disturbance affects the spotted owl.

in my experience, i've never been terribly cold in the shelter, as long as there are other climbers sharing it with me. asphixiation (sp?) is a genuine concern of mine, however, because of multiple stoves burning in the poorly-ventilated building. so i usually tent it. but again, i've never been cold sleeping in the hut. i do have a killer sleeping bag, though!

quote: Originally posted by Fairweather:[QB] Call me cynical, but do Spotted Owls nest all freakin' year? May through October? The $$$ have been "appropriated" for this project. It now just boils down to NPS obstinance.QB] fyi, spotted owls generally begin the nesting process in march. they usually cease nesting, and become less territorial, in late july. however, if they actually manage to fledge some young (basically a miracle these days) the owls might be supersensitive to disturbance into fall. the nps isn't displaying obstinance in this case, fairweather. the nps is mandated by the endangered species act and the fish and wildlife service to protect these endangered owls. the forest service is mandated as well, they just mysteriously seem to find a lot less owls on their land, thus requiring a lot less protection.

weather's crappin' out for this weekend

too bad you didn't go for it (rainier) this week--four straight days of beautiful, clear, dry weather...

"I continued on to complete a great climb marred only by the memory of this person who led people to believe she was a climbing ranger and was on the DC dispensing bad info." bitterness causes indigestion, sean [ 02-14-2002: Message edited by: Duchess ]