iceaxe23 Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 (edited) So from work some time back I got a free backpack. A north face 35 liter climbing pack. It has 210D Cordura Dyneema fabric, removable hip belt, (top lid does not come off ) removable frame and aluminum stay. All at 2.5lbs I love the pack as is for days out rock climbing because of the frame sheet protects me from pro poking me in the back and I can haul quite a bit for a 35L. But for mountaineering I want a bit more freedom like my CCW packs (LOVE LOVE Them). So I was like "I'll just pull the frame out and put a folded pad in there" and then noticed can't do that as the frame pocket was tapered. Then I noticed there was a full rectangular pocket in the pack but it was "sealed" with threading so I pulled out my leatherman and unstitched it, went to wally world and got a blue hardman pad (exactly like my yellow one but blue) for $5.99 cut to fit. I now I have a 35L sub 2lb pack with hip belt and bivy pad! So why the heck did they make a pocket in there that was sealed up? It was like a bag within a bag. the pack [img:left]http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx54/dan8152/IMG_0247.jpg[/img] the pack inside out with weird cut frame sheet [img:left]http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx54/dan8152/IMG_0246.jpg[/img] Cutting threads to open up hidden pocket [img:left]http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx54/dan8152/IMG_0243.jpg[/img] Measuring/ Cutting blue hard man $5.99 pad [img:left]http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx54/dan8152/IMG_0244.jpg[/img] Finished! and I can still put the frame sheet in If I wanted too as that pocket is still in there. [img:left]http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx54/dan8152/IMG_0248.jpg[/img] Edited June 6, 2011 by iceaxe23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastCoastBastard Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 My first alpine-sized pack was a Gregory Alpinisto (circa 2000/2001). Very comfortable, well thought out pack for the most part. Until you got to the suspension - which was bolted to the pack itself. The back panel was foam, plastic and aluminum all bolted together. Almost impossible to remove without destroying the whole back of the pack. It also came with a "bivy pad", which had no structural or comfort role - it sloted into it's own pocket on the inside of the pack, doing nothing but taking up about 20% of the room inside the pack. Why they did this I do not know - took a good design and made it heavier, more complex and less functional. Probably more expensive to manufacture too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crackers Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 So from work some time back I got a free backpack. A north face 35 liter climbing pack.... (top lid does not come off ) removable frame and aluminum stay... So I was like "I'll just pull the frame out and put a folded pad in there" and then noticed can't do that as the frame pocket was tapered. Then I noticed there was a full rectangular pocket in the pack but it was "sealed" with threading ... so I pulled out my leatherman and unstitched it, went to wally world and got a blue hardman pad (exactly like my yellow one but blue) for $5.99 cut to fit. Just cause I'm like this, but please do forgive me. It's not exactly like your yellow one but blue, or I'd be shocked. EVA is made by many many companies. The best is EvaZote made by Zote Foams, it is used in yellow hard man pads and it does come in different colors (we use yellow, black and blue here at CiloGear depending on what our supplier has on hand). EvaZote comes in at least 8 different densities and you can have it cut to any thickness you want for the most part. From what I know, the wholesale price of a standard sheet at a standard thickness (~48" x 108" and 8mm) yellow hard man foam is about $40. That said, does it matter? Over the long run, yes. The Zote stuff lasts longer. In terms of "R-Value"? Probably. But R-Value testing against human body heat loss is a joke not a science, so... So why the heck did they make a pocket in there that was sealed up? It was like a bag within a bag. Manufacturing meets design. Manufacturing wins. Have a look at the thermoformed backpanel and the framesheet and it should be come clear. The designer wanted to have a nice effective load transfer while saving weight. The factory offered the high tech looking (and cheap) thermoformed backpanel as a feature and the designer required the removable framesheet. The designer might have wanted a tapered framesheet pocket, but setting that pocket would be a TON of work. Check out the bladder pocket for an idea. That is sewn on in with the folds and everything by a special, incredibly expensive machine with a jig. The manufacturer really didn't want to do a new jig and dedicate machines to this part and a have a manufacturing bottle neck with the designers silly contoured framesheet pocket. Not to mention the scrap material! The designer knows you don't want the framesheet running around and not being in the right place. It's not going to work well for first time pack users. Furthermore, a removable pad is just going to irritate the buyers at Big Box Retailer who see a disaster of lost crap in a price point pack. So the designer demands a tapered framesheet pocket that is hard but not impossible to open and keeps the framesheet intact with a minimum of shrinkable parts. Solution? Sew in a nice rectangle of fabric and add a couple of stitches to it to keep the framesheet where it was supposed to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceaxe23 Posted June 8, 2011 Author Share Posted June 8, 2011 Thanks for the reply and great information. Very informative! As to my yellow hard man pad I'm not sure of the make but it looks and feels just like the wally world one. My mom got me the yellow pad at a North face retail store in the late 80's or early 90's. It does have brown/or orange pinstripes on the bottom though. So from work some time back I got a free backpack. A north face 35 liter climbing pack.... (top lid does not come off ) removable frame and aluminum stay... So I was like "I'll just pull the frame out and put a folded pad in there" and then noticed can't do that as the frame pocket was tapered. Then I noticed there was a full rectangular pocket in the pack but it was "sealed" with threading ... so I pulled out my leatherman and unstitched it, went to wally world and got a blue hardman pad (exactly like my yellow one but blue) for $5.99 cut to fit. Just cause I'm like this, but please do forgive me. It's not exactly like your yellow one but blue, or I'd be shocked. EVA is made by many many companies. The best is EvaZote made by Zote Foams, it is used in yellow hard man pads and it does come in different colors (we use yellow, black and blue here at CiloGear depending on what our supplier has on hand). EvaZote comes in at least 8 different densities and you can have it cut to any thickness you want for the most part. From what I know, the wholesale price of a standard sheet at a standard thickness (~48" x 108" and 8mm) yellow hard man foam is about $40. That said, does it matter? Over the long run, yes. The Zote stuff lasts longer. In terms of "R-Value"? Probably. But R-Value testing against human body heat loss is a joke not a science, so... So why the heck did they make a pocket in there that was sealed up? It was like a bag within a bag. Manufacturing meets design. Manufacturing wins. Have a look at the thermoformed backpanel and the framesheet and it should be come clear. The designer wanted to have a nice effective load transfer while saving weight. The factory offered the high tech looking (and cheap) thermoformed backpanel as a feature and the designer required the removable framesheet. The designer might have wanted a tapered framesheet pocket, but setting that pocket would be a TON of work. Check out the bladder pocket for an idea. That is sewn on in with the folds and everything by a special, incredibly expensive machine with a jig. The manufacturer really didn't want to do a new jig and dedicate machines to this part and a have a manufacturing bottle neck with the designers silly contoured framesheet pocket. Not to mention the scrap material! The designer knows you don't want the framesheet running around and not being in the right place. It's not going to work well for first time pack users. Furthermore, a removable pad is just going to irritate the buyers at Big Box Retailer who see a disaster of lost crap in a price point pack. So the designer demands a tapered framesheet pocket that is hard but not impossible to open and keeps the framesheet intact with a minimum of shrinkable parts. Solution? Sew in a nice rectangle of fabric and add a couple of stitches to it to keep the framesheet where it was supposed to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crackers Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Thanks for the reply and great information. Very informative! As to my yellow hard man pad I'm not sure of the make but it looks and feels just like the wally world one. My mom got me the yellow pad at a North face retail store in the late 80's or early 90's. It does have brown/or orange pinstripes on the bottom though. A pleasure. Here at CiloGear, I keep at least 4 different types of EVA around. Honestly, it's hard to tell the difference between similar types, a lot harder than telling fabrics or coatings or other stuff like that apart. The easiest test is compression set resistance. Pinch the material hard, and watch how long it takes to uncompress. Does pinching leave a mark? Pinch it again several times and see how the foam reacts. Does it come back from repeated compressions? Or does it leave a mark? Over time and use, the marks will substantially degrade the foam. The 'true' 'yellow hard man pad' is EvaZote because it has the best compression set resistance of comparative EVAs and is relatively easy to get at a density that's good for folks sleeping on snow/ice. Does it really matter? I'd hope not much. While I strongly believe light is right, I have no interest in self immolation or in freezing. Then again, I use the dense stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceaxe23 Posted June 10, 2011 Author Share Posted June 10, 2011 Thanks for the reply and great information. Very informative! As to my yellow hard man pad I'm not sure of the make but it looks and feels just like the wally world one. My mom got me the yellow pad at a North face retail store in the late 80's or early 90's. It does have brown/or orange pinstripes on the bottom though. A pleasure. Here at CiloGear, I keep at least 4 different types of EVA around. Honestly, it's hard to tell the difference between similar types, a lot harder than telling fabrics or coatings or other stuff like that apart. The easiest test is compression set resistance. Pinch the material hard, and watch how long it takes to uncompress. Does pinching leave a mark? Pinch it again several times and see how the foam reacts. Does it come back from repeated compressions? Or does it leave a mark? Over time and use, the marks will substantially degrade the foam. The 'true' 'yellow hard man pad' is EvaZote because it has the best compression set resistance of comparative EVAs and is relatively easy to get at a density that's good for folks sleeping on snow/ice. Does it really matter? I'd hope not much. While I strongly believe light is right, I have no interest in self immolation or in freezing. Then again, I use the dense stuff. After closer looking and testing the blue cheapman pad has larger bubbles in the foam. My Yellow pad is denser. I have used my yellow pad alone in winter and have been fine. The blue cheapman pad I have only used it in this pack on Hood to sit on for breaks and worked for that (I just sat on my pack so I guess that would not be a great test). I pinched both pads and neither left marks. [img:left]http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx54/dan8152/IMG_0290.jpg[/img] Thanks again for your informative response. I am actually in the process of deciding what pack from your company I want to order. I have been reading up on your packs and watching your propaganda films on youtube. I'm thinking maybe a worksack 30 to compliment my CCW chernobyl (and replace this pack as it's going to my girlfriend) thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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