The Wilderness & My (Your) Rights

[Duchess]

But if you're not doing anything wrong, why view rangers as the enemy and refuse to talk to them??

 

Are you an American? In America, the theory is we live at liberty free from government coercion and interference. That's the theory, anyway. The reason not to submit to questioning by government employees is that we don't have to. We don't need a excuse not to, instead government is obligated to have an objective reason for any action that requires it to stop a citizen.

 

Well agreed. And yes I am an American. I just don't interpret a ranger asking me where I'm going, where I'm camping, etc. to be coercion and interference! I don't assume that every ranger is up to no good, just like I would hope that the ranger doesn't assume that every climber/backpacker they meet is up to no good!!

[Duchess]

"You do not have to submit to ID or questioning just because they are law enforcement." That's not true.

 

Here's the fact: a cop cannot just walk up to you and demand ID. A cop cannot even ask your name. It is illegal. In order to get your ID, they must first arrest you. They must know or have reasonable suspicion that you have broken a specific known law and place you under formal arrest. Then and only then do they have standing to get your ID. In the case of a traffic stop, the flashing red lights are de facto advice that you have been arrested (detained). If you doubt this, next time you are stopped ask if you are under arrest. The cop will be kind of surprised at that but will answer, "well, yes, technically you are under arrest." The traffic infraction he/she believes she saw you commit was the "crime" that made it legal for the cop to detain you and gather information.

 

So a ranger can't stop you on the trail and out of the blue ask you your name or anything else about who you are. I can't imagine that any ranger would do that, however. Less clear to me is a ranger's legal standing to ask you your business: where you are going and so on. My first reaction is that no government employee has legal standing to do that under any circumstances unless it is a law enforcement person who has arrested you.

 

Sure a ranger can ask you your name, just like any citizen anywhere can ask you your name!! You don't necessarily have to give it to them, unless they are investigating an illegal act, though!

 

There's two different things being discussed here, though. One is being detained for that investigation, in which yes, you must provide ID if asked. If not, you could be placed under CUSTODIAL arrest, in other words you are being taken into custody. You are not under custodial arrest during a traffic stop, nor when the ranger is chatting with you on the trail. Your Miranda rights (i.e. to remain silent) only come into play when you're being interrogated under custodial arrest.

 

Either way you absolutely must ID yourself. If you fail to do so, most law enforcement will consider it an officer safety issue, which could result in being taken into custody!

 

But anyhow, my point is just that your rights in the wilderness are the exact same as in downtown Seattle, and we should all know our rights like the back of our hands!

 

Just sayin'.

Edited July 2, 2008 by Duchess

[Fairweather]

This thread is funny: A bunch of liberals sounding like the paranoid Republican stereotype. I agree with them though, and would point out to Duchess that ID/licence is required to drive a motor vehicle--it is not required that I carry identification when walking down the street in Seattle or on a trail in the back country. I don't think we've gotten to "may I see your papers please" quite yet, have we?

 

But if you're not doing anything wrong...

 

Edited July 2, 2008 by Fairweather

[Duchess]

I didn't mean physical ID, like a driver's license. But you have to give them your CORRECT full name, address, and DOB; it's required if justified.

 

You must be informed about what offence you are committing, or about what offence the officer believes you are about to commit or what offence the officer believes you have committed. If the officer doesn’t give you any information concerning an offence you might have committed or be about to commit, or if the officer doesn’t charge you with anything, you may refuse to identify yourself (unless you are driving a vehicle, are in a bar or a movie theatre, in which cases you must always identify yourself).

 

I have no idea what movie theaters have to do with anything!