allthumbs Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 OK - I am registered as a Republican. So I am not bashing Bush here. Well, yes I am. Because the thugs I am talking about all work for the United States Government. A friend of mine has been ranting and raving about the Patriot Act, and for the most part I've pooh poohed him and made fun of him. But more and more each day I am seeing his point more clearly. So far, our government, acting in our behalf and hiding behind a shield of patriotism has put a law into place that violates the following three amendments to the Constitution of the United States of America - a document many of us have been sworn to defend from enemies - BOTH FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC. Now, we can eject the current government through the vote - but who do we put in their place? The running Democrats are no better. Anyone can compain about something and how screwed up it is - but it takes thought and effort to complain about something and then offer a viable solution. I thought about voting for the Libertarian party this time around - but then I have to ask myself - am I throwing my vote away? Or am I getting both major parties to pay attention? Read the Patriot Act and then read the three amendments below and see how they are being trashed. And we let it happen. Because it started back during the drug wars - and we said - drug wars - hell that doesn't affect me - let them confiscate property without due process - they are just slimey drug dealers. Only, something happened. We set a precedent. My friend quoted Thomas Paine at another site about the ACLU - and it is so true - "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine -- That is kind of where we are now. Read the amendments Amendment IV The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. Amendment V No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. Amendment VI In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense. Then tell me if they have been trashed. Then tell me what the hell we can do about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Bully for you, trask. Well said, by a true patriot. Look at Guantanamo Bay. Those foreign prisoners don't have legal representation, due process, a speedy trial or anything. I don't care if they are not US citizens. If we think we are trying to set an example for the rest of the world, we're doing a piss poor job of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willstrickland Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Trask, I'd also like to vote for the Libertarians. Probably the closest party to my own beliefs....small govt, fiscally conservative, socially liberal. But after Bush/Gore I can't see myself doing it. I wish someone would splinter from their party...McCain might have a chance, and run maybe with Perot's machine backing them...but it's exactly that: wishful thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted December 9, 2003 Author Share Posted December 9, 2003 Will, I pine for McCain again too. Someone with a clue, please step forward and return this country to greatness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrambler Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 willstrickland said: --snip--...fiscally conservative, socially liberal. --snip-- I've wondered if it's even possible--fiscally responsible yet socially conscious. Are these mutually compatible? Doesn't it take gov't money to administer social programs? How much money could we save or at least bring cash flow back to the States, if we ended troop stationing in South Korea and Okinawa? It's not so far fetched considering we removed troops and equipment from Europe after the Cold War. For some odd reason, I feel a deep seated objection to this but it seems reasonable. Shouldn't everything be on the table when it's time to cut rather than cut only domestic programs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted December 9, 2003 Author Share Posted December 9, 2003 It's unfortunate that most people don't seem to care about this subject. I would bet that the majority of people in this country either don't have any idea what the Patriot Act is or they have completely forgotten about it. The act was obviously just a document waiting for an excuse to be enacted and it isn't a democrat or republican thing, it is a big government thing. If our officials really wanted to secure our country, they would have shut the borders two years ago, rounded up every suspicious character in the country and either deported them if they were illegal or let them go if they were legal. Instead, they've sold us an illusion of security. Our borders are wide open, our air travel industry has become a joke with guys like me getting yanked to the side to have my socks checked while Habib Abdul the baggage handler, walks back and forth from his car to the aircraft every time he wants a cigarette. I just heard an interview with Thomas Tancredo, a Colorado Republican Rep. who chairs the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus and amongst other things, he stated that the Mexican Drug Cartel has now stepped into the alien smuggling business and almost half of their new business is Chinese and Middle Eastern nationals paying up to $30, 000.00 a piece to get into this country. We hear stories from Ashcroft that they have bad guys under surveillance around the country and are monitoring them carefully. Excuse me Agent Smith, why don't you just go arrest the mother fucker and get them out of my country? The other day coming out of Vegas, my friend and I got stopped and given the royal treatment by some "Security" goons at the Hoover Dam. Why? Because your truck "Looks big enough to do some damage if it had anything in it" was their response. I asked them if we looked like terrorists to them and their response was that they weren't specifically looking for them, they were to just pick people at random. Excuse me? Then there are those that point to the fact that we haven't been attacked since '91 and use that to justify the Act. Guess what guys? It had been ten years since we had been attacked the last time and by gosh, we didn't even have a Patriot Act to protect us during that whole time. As you can see, I can go on and on about this because it REALLY pisses me off. Almost as much as the complacency of most of the country in letting this continue. The purpose of this act is just a large leap forward for government power that started with our "War on Drugs", another worthless, liberty grabbing bunch of laws and restrictions that our government uses. I Prefer Dangerous Freedom To Peaceful Slavery- Thomas Jefferson Yep, some people may die but you know what? 50,000 people die in car wrecks every year. 100,000 people die because of improper medical prescriptions or drug reactions. I'll take Jefferson's world... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraysovereign Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 scrambler said: How much money could we save or at least bring cash flow back to the States, if we ended troop stationing in South Korea and Okinawa? It's not so far fetched considering we removed troops and equipment from Europe after the Cold War. For some odd reason, I feel a deep seated objection to this but it seems reasonable. Shouldn't everything be on the table when it's time to cut rather than cut only domestic programs? Maintaining a presence in the western Pacific may have something to do with this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelle Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Trask - yes there are a lot of things wrong with that act and the Patriot II act. I think when it was passed people didn't object because they were afraid and didn't think they would be hassled by their own government. From what I have read, Howard Dean seems to be the candidate who is most outspoken against the act. Have you looked at him as a possible candidate you could support? He is fiscally conservative and also pro-gun. One other scary thing that no one seems to be concerned about is the whole microchip identification tag. There are people marketing them (and people dumb enough to have them inserted) as a way for family members to claim bodies when something devastating happens and a body is hard to identify. These things were written about back in Penthouse (yes, there are some good articles in between the photos and the Forum ) back in the late 90s when the gov't started talking about inserting them in soldiers and prisioners. They were excited that the identification technology could be paired someday with GPS and they would be able to recapture escaped prisioners or find pilots who'd been shot down. I think it is a slippery slope to allow the gov't to track people via implanted GPS chips and a massive invasion of privacy. Some 11 year old kid was one of the first people to have one implanted after 9-11. And on the drug war...Do you really believe that the government is engaged in a war on drugs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrambler Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 (edited) Well yeah, I hear ya but what can be done? US Rep. C.L. "Butch" Otter, Republican, tried to propose legislation that rolls back some of the Patriot Act but I believe it was shelved. ( Anti-Patriot Act Measure Drops From Bill also Otter to speak on Patriot Act dissent Unfortunately, what we saw instead was a strengthing of the Patriot Act since it was enacted. Edited December 9, 2003 by scrambler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted December 9, 2003 Author Share Posted December 9, 2003 Just like Neo in The Matrix, I decided to swallow the red pill! It's amazing what you see when the veil is finally lifted. Now comes the hard part: Trying to understand why others cannot see what I now see so plainly. It's all for show, the whole government thing. Now for the next lesson - In order to make this country more secure it will take one thing and one thing only - ever present vigilance on the part of every freedom loving American. Vigilance and personal responsibility. I think Albert Einstein said it best when he said, "The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are the constitutional rights secure." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick_Sharpless Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 another convert Deja vu "Those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither." The problem is - they vote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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