Jason_Martin
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Posts posted by Jason_Martin
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Three things are being expounded on in this thread:
1) Mountaineers Heard Mentality2) Rudeness in the Mountains3) Poor Instruction linked to over-reactive egos
Let me start by saying I don't think the mountaineers are bad. Most of the individuals are interested in learning how to climb and with the current popularity of the sport, who can blame them? On their own, most of them are nice guys.
I think all three of the items I listed above are connected. They are not seperate issues, but one in the same.
The way that they train their club members is to have them go through a one year course. At the end of a year those same participants are required to "teach." I believe that this is the root of the problem.
Putting someone who is not ready to instruct in an instructors position is dangerous and unethical. Suddenly these people are in a spot that they may not have been in before... They've been told that they know everything they need to know to instruct. They passed their class. So if they don't know a specific technique it must be wrong.
Egos are inflated by this position. They are in charge. It is their job to point out techniques that are "wrong." Unfortunately their toolbox of techqniques is nearly empty, so they don't know what's wrong and what's right. They feel that it is their job to "instruct" people who are not in their party...
I believe that putting a person in this position not only inflates the ego but adds undo stress. Thus they are often rude to other parties of non-mountaineers. Indeed, what if someone outside their party knows more than they do about mountaineering... They have been put in this position by the powers that be because they believe they know everything they need to know.
Due to this premature concept of leading groups, their is a psychological need for numbers. Strength in numbers you know. Thus the buses pull up to the crags and the hordes swarm over the Easton Glacier.
So should they be abolished? Thrown away? Eliminated? Of course not... Perhaps they just need to restructure a bit.
What if it took two, three, or four years before a person was allowed to "lead" groups? What if they were required to learn about mountain ettiquet during their courses? What if it were pounded into them that rudeness is not acceptable in the mountains? What if they always limited their group size to six or less?
I think we, the non-mountaineers, have a responsibility too. I don't think its right to attack them or be rude to them because of their group size or attitude. I think it's all of our responsibilites to show beginning climbers that rudeness and unsoliceted advice is not acceptable ettiquet. I also think it is all of our jobs to limit our group sizes and impacts on the environment.
As has been stated above, the mountaineers are responsible for a lot of good things too. Among them, guidebooks, trail work, and generally an environmental stance...
I don't know... I didn't intend this to be a manifesto, just a few ideas.
Jason
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Nervedoc,
I climbed there about three years ago and found it to be a rather unappealing crag. That said:
There are a number of moderate routes on the wall with varried ratings. As has been stated before a number of these routes push two pitches.
Three years ago there was some access issues to the crag and we had to approach from a small lake nearby and drop down to the crag. I believe that the most simple approach crosses private property.
The guys at Olympic Mountaineering in Port Angeles can give you some decent beta on the routes and the approach that doesn't cross the private property.
Jason
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Hello All,
I'm currently looking into a trip in this area. Any information concerning references or guidebooks would be helpful.
I'm not interested in more references to "The Great Canadian Knife." I am however interested in moderate route suggestions from 5.6 - 10b with aid up to A3.
Thanks for the help.
Jason
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I went to one of his shows last year... Death by Slideshow. It was incredibly long and boring. He described just about every move on every pitch of a thirty pitch climb... He's not a good storyteller.
Jason
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Carolyn,
Most of the approaches are quite long. There are a few routes that are roadside. It seems that the climbs that are closest to the road require the crossing of a river or frozen reservoir and that those not close to the road require quite a bit of fortitude when it comes to winter travel. There are a lot of routes... But there are not a lot of people willing to work for them.
The nearest area with ice from Seattle is Snoqualmie Pass. However, one has to watch conditions closely to have a good day in this area.
Small groups of climbers have been climbing hard ice in Washington State for nearly three decades. However, only recently has there been interest by larger groups of climbers in "back-yard ice." Some are quite pleased by what they have found... Others are not.
There is tons of ice in Washington. One just has to be vigilant and watch the weather. Everything comes in sooner or later.
Jason
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If you're on your way down here soon, expect severe winds. Shady routes are cold right now.
Following are a couple of sunny routes that haven't been mentioned:
Great Red Book: Gets afternoon sun. A nice two pitch 5.8.
Jubiliant Song: Long approach, but well worth it. No crowds.
Johnny Vegas: A nice 5.7 with 5.9 variations. Fun in the sun.
Bullah's Book: 5.9- A classic.
Rainbow Buttress: One of the best climbs around. Expect a long day.
Have a blast!
Jason
[ 03-15-2002: Message edited by: Jason Martin ]
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The summer 2001 Mountain Bulletin published by the American Mountain Guides Association has a very interesting and somewhat disturbing article about water knots and cyclic loading.
Apparently they did a test on a number of water knots tied in webbing. Generally speaking they attempted to load and unload the knots a hundred times. With a one inch tail they were seldom able to make the hundred count. It pulled through.
So what does this mean?
Webbing tied around trees or other anchors need to be checked. These knots are being presented with cyclic loads. If you do not check the knots prior to rappelling one risks anchor faliure.
The article does not suggest one method over another for tying webbing. However, I have found that water knots work best -- as in they don't come untied -- if they are soaked in water then loaded. This tightens the knot to the point wherein it is unlikely to come untied easily.
The only reason I see that one might not want to use a double fishman's knot in webbing is that it would be quite unwieldy. Tube webbing tied in a water knot lies flat and it is easy to see that it is tied correctly.
Jason
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"Mikey's Gully" has been seeing ascents for at least twenty years. I haven't found any definitive information on who climbed it first.
The climb to the left was probably first sent by Jack Lewis some time in the early eighties. Unfortunately this is an educated guess and the best I can do with it right now.
Jason
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The climb you guys did is called "Mikey's Gully." The next climb over is WI 4+/5. So far we have been unable to track down a name for that one.
Jason
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Ten days is a long time for a Cascade Ice Climb. What is there this weekend may not be by that time. You may want to check again with people on this website the day before you go.
Jason
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This story's not as creepy as some of the others, but it's still cool.
Five or six years ago, Dave Z. and I were on the South Side of Mt. Adams. We had set up camp and were piddling around when we noticed a nice steep two hundred foot incline near our camp. The sun was setting, but we just weren't done adventuring yet.
We approach this sixty degree snow and ice slope and climbed it for the hell of it. At the top we were able to traverse over to a much lower angle slope which we were going to take back to our camp.
As we were descending I thought I saw something out of the corner of my eye. I only saw it for a second, but it appeared to be a bright golden orb floating in the sky. Then it was gone.
"Did you see that?" I asked.
"Nah, didn't see nothing." My partner responded.
We continued down for a moment, when Dave looked up startled. "Did you see something over there?"
"Uh... No."
And I didn't. We were both spooked. The horizon was still bright red as the sun had just dipped behind it. Suddenly we both saw something out of the corners of our eyes.
"What the hell was that?"
"Dude I do not even want to know."
Both of us were wigged. We didn't want to say it at the time, but we both thought we were seeing a UFO bounce in and out of our sight lines. We watched the horizon.
The light came again, but this time it was quite clear what it was. There were clouds in the distance and apparently there was a lightning storm.
The freaky thing about it was that the lightening was shooting UP into the sky from the clouds. Neither of us knew that lightning could do that. This is what we had seen out of the corner of our eyes.
Cool and kind of creepy.
Jason
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After doing extensive research on ice climbing in the state; I thought it should be noted that Doug and Bart probably were not the first to climb this route.
The seventies and eighties saw many hard climbers in the northwest that were not always interested in reporting their ascents. This is not to dismiss anyones ascent of Spindrift Couloir, but to point out that Doug and Bart's route was a "first recorded ascent."
Regardless of who did it first, it was pretty cool that they pulled it off when they were so young... And it's pretty cool someone nailed it recently.
Way to go guys!
Jason
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For all you spring breakers that are going to be in Red Rocks during late March. The Banff Mountain Film Festival touring show is coming to Vegas on March 19. It's going to be at seven o'clock at UNLV.
Jason
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Skisports,
I assume you are talking about Crystal Mountain Ski area near Mt. Rainier.
Yes, there is an ice climb out of bounds in the Crystal Resort Area. One may be able to see it approximately 3.1 miles up the Crystal Mountain access road. There is a "35 MPH" sign here. Look up the mountainside on the right side of the road and you will be able to see the falls.
The best access would probably be via backcountry skiing after taking a lift.
I don't have any information pertaining to ascents of this route. However, it is unlikley that it has not been climbed.
Jason
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I've taken the Nordic Wall out of the guide as access to this area is very difficult. Not only that, I've found out that one may be ticketed in Washington State for climbing on the road cuts on the highway. In other words... Don't climb there.
Jason
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They're short pitches. The route is about two hundred and twenty feet. I'm reffering to the routes above the bridge near Paradise.
Jason
[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: Jason Martin ]
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There are three routes above the bridge near Paradise.
The first lowest on the right is a two pitch 3+, the route left of that is a 5, and up the gully on the rocks below the Muir snowfield below Obseravation Point there is ice with a number of variations... However this last is a long approach whichever way you look at it.
Jason
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Skookum Falls can be seen across the river 8.2 miles east of Greenwater on Highway 410. One may access these climbs without getting wet via Road 73 which can be found about 6.2 miles east of Greenwater. Drive 73 a short distance across the river and park at the Skookum Falls trailhead, trail #1194.
With a updated map of the logging roads in the area one may be able to get within a few hundred yards of the top of the falls and rappel down them. Unfortunately many of these roads have gates on them.
Three falls make up the Skookum Falls area. The furthest to the left is a high volume waterfall and seldom freezes solid. However the two falls to the right have a much lower volume and freeze during cold snaps.
Jason
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In 1996 two college aged climbers were killed in the Source Lake Cirque.
Jason
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Here's a tough question for Washington Ice Climbers...
Has anyone ever climbed ice in the Stehekin area? In particular has anyone sent Rainbow Falls?
I'm interested in anything that people might have done that was accessed via Lake Chelan.
As most of you know I'm one of the two guidebook authors working on a Washington State Ice Guide. We are hoping to have this project finished at the end of the ice season this year. So if anyone has any info at all it would be greatly appreciated.
Email beta to wastateice@yahoo.com or directly to me at j_dougie@yahoo.com.
Thanks to everyone who has helped with this project thus far.
Jason
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I've worked as a mountain guide for the last few years and have had the experience of guiding a number of people in their sixties.
Every opinion on this page is excellent. Taking time to acclimatize at Muir or Sherman is an excellent idea. There should not be any rush if you really want to get the summit. Wait until summer when we have long periods of high pressure and then take three or even four days to do the route.
The other thing to think about is what kind of experience you want to have on the mountain. Do you want to just make the summit using the last vestages of strength or do you want to enjoy your trip? Most people want to enjoy their trip. By having too short a time frame and by not putting in the excercise work prior to the trip, you are dooming yourself to a painful experience.
The most important thing you can do to prepare is to get a solid cardio workout at least five times a week until your trip. My experience is that most people do not understand what this means. Run, do stairmaster, do practice hikes with big packs. Put in a minimum of forty minutes a day - more if you can.
It's interesting that while guiding one discovers that certain people you'd expect to be strong are sometimes quite weak, and vice versa. The people I'm referring to as being weak are those that are athletic but not outdoorsy. Let me clarify. I've seen marithon runners have a very hard time. They are not used to the pack. Then on the opposite end of the spectrum, I've seen people who work in an office all day that hike on a regular basis succeed.
The point to this is that crosstraining is very important. Don't forget to get out with that pack as much as possible.
Three times I've guided families with a mother or father or both on the trip that are well into their sixties. On all three occasions the elder members of the family had trained so hard that the twenty and thirty something kids had a hard time keeping up. I found this quite inspirational.
Best of luck on your trip!
Jason
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Jammed up the North Face of Chair Peak yesterday. Great conditions!
Northeast Buttress looks great. And the ski out afterward was spectacular.
Jason
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Sport Climbing in the Olympics...
There is some stuff in the Elwah drainage just outside of Port Angeles. There are a few routes on a rock on private property above the town of Chimicum.
Unfortunately all the routes out there are the equivalent of climbing on hard mud with bolts in it.
The guys at Olympic Mountaineering in Port Angeles are responsible for most of the route development on the Peninsula. You could give them a call and see if anyone's gotten around to putting together some kind of guide.
Jason
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Just an opinion... But I think Lambone hit the nail on the head in his previous post.
Being a little bit friendly goes a long way.
When soloists come crusing by and act as if no one is as good as them... Yeah, people are going to get pissed. On the other hand if a soloist hangs back and has friendly conversations with the climbers in front of him, more often than not those climbers will allow him to pass.
The Northwest does have a very large contigent of undertrained people "teaching" others how to climb. One of the things some of these groups "teach" most efficiently is how to be rude to those who are not in their party.
If people were a little more cordial to one another in the mountains, I think some of the more serious issues between slow parties, fast parties, and soloists could be dealt with in a classier way, minus the ruffled feathers.
Jason
protecting exposed easy climbing
in Newbies
Posted
This is an interesting topic with a number of interesting responses. Everybody's opinion on this topic is valid in one circumstance or another.
However, I would like to address a few things that have not yet been mentioned.
First: It has been stated that one should be closer to his partner when simul-climbing. This is true. Generally speaking you should do this by tying in short. To do this you must tie in as you normally would and then coil the rope over your shoulder until you have the desired length between you and your partner. Then tie off the coil with an overhand figure eight which should be clipped into two locking biners on your belay loop. This is reffered to as a Kiwi Coil. The cool thing about it is that if you get into a situation where you need a full rope, all you have to do is uncoil a bit and you're all set.
Second: On third or fourth class terrain a person is unlikely to take a true "whipper." More often than not the danger is slipping and sliding into a dangerous situation. In which case, simul-climbing makes a lot of sense. A rope can not only save one's life in this situation, but put one's mind more at ease while climbing this easy ground.
Third: On snow or ice, if it is steep enough that one has to simul-climb, the leader will not be able to self-arrest if the second falls. This is why you placed snow pro or ice screws to begin with.
Fourth: There's nothing wrong with belaying through a section that seems difficult. Even if it seems a bit ridiculous because it's fourth class. It's better to do a standard lead and not fall than to do something that feels dangerous and have someone get hurt. Generally speaking you won't clog up a route that is fourth class. Usually faster climbers will be able to find a way around you. If they can't find a way around and they do appear to be strong climbers, politely let them pass.
Lastly, it's generally thought to be better for the stronger climber to follow the weaker climber in a simul-climbing situation. However on third or fourth class terrain this may not always be the case. If the leader is a far superior climber, he may be able to constantly scramble ahead and provide hip belays, terrain belays, and the like. As stated above, people don't take "whippers" on this type of terrain and a slight tug can sometimes give a person the balance they need to avoid a fall when they are about to lose their balance.
Anyway, just a few things to think about.
Jason