crimper

what a twit. i mean, what wit.

props on the crumbling! i can picture that finger lock. skipping that gear is something you do on a headpoint, not an onsight, eh? what's next? i think there is some gear up high on the humbling...at the no-hands rest....but the first 25-30 feet might be blank for gear...

kev, i don't think nate said any of that stuff. i thought his point was that just because some climbs got bolted doesn't ruin a crag because you can use your own brain and create adventure by skipping bolts or whatever.

and speaking from experience and knowledge, the bolts at ozone were placed with the onsighter in mind, not the headpointer. i think nate totally gets that and he's making the point that the existence of bolts is not a mandate to clip them. ozone in 2010 is not ozone in 2004. unless you were there you have no idea how much those routes have cleaned up, and how much easier they probably are now that every hold is chalked, the loose ones broken, sometimes leaving bigger holds. a lot of the 10s probably feel 5.9 now, and so on.

wow, the crumbling went on gear? who? when? after how many toprope burns? i think that's rad and someone needs to tell jason kohler! (he drilled 'em) even before i get the answers, i can say that anyone can risk life and limb to skip bolts if their willpower and skills are strong enough, but that does NOT give them the right to chop bolts. but as nate said, it is an awesome personal challenge to maybe aspire to. markd would never spray this, but he led bloodline - 12b at broughton - on all gear. and he didn't even CONSIDER chopping the bolts because he realized this was a personal quest and that the bolts absolutely serve a valid purpose and it would be selfish to chop them. i used to say that dean potter could solo every route at ozone, but that doesn't mean he could then chop every bolt....

unless those are your bolts! (they're not mine) then again, we're back to convenience anchors now. is JS supposed to leave his own gear in the crack and just hope and pray that every other climber lowers off instead of snagging the gear? i don't quite get what's so wrong...other than the fact that maybe the climb should have been (for argument's sake) 10 feet longer, if there was even 10 feet more climbable rock above? (and now we are maybe into the dilemna of balancing 10 feet of 5-6 or whatever easier climbing against scraping off 10 feet of ecosystem) i can name climbs at smith and beacon and elsewhere that have bolted anchors somewhere near cracks, because that was a damn good place to stop the climb! (wrong gull, dod's jam, windsurfer, etc)

i think it's great there are scary routes at drop zone. even if i choose never to lead (or repeat!) a few of them. anyone who wanders over from ozone without a guidebook will soon discover why bill and jim call it the far side. sure, they might start on the 6-8 routes there that have bolts, but all those routes are heady and at a minimum require stout and funky 5.9 and up climbing on gear that is usually thin, marginal and hard to see. not most people's cup of tea! but for the masochistic few, a reason to be. hence these passionate threads. from there, if you aren't turned off yet, the routes get bolt-free and the truly spicy climbing begins. none of the routes are all that hard by grade, or physically, but you had better have a few dozen 5.10 trad onsights under your belt, and been in enough sketchy spots to keep cool in sketchy spots. beyond my own few routes i've only led maybe 5-6 routes there (and toproped another 10-15) - cuz i spend all my limited time gloriously agonizing over the routes i'm trying to put up - and i can safely say that each one of them had a sequence (or two) where at ozone or madrone or broughton there would likely be a bolt. but not here. they aren't the hardest routes, and a 5-12 climber who isn't afraid to run it out might not be too bothered. but if you don't climb well above the grade you are leading.... anyway, fair warning, if anyone reading this is thinking about heading down. PS - try not to get hurt if you go, that's the wrong kind of attention!

...but back to joe's point... my god i'd be devastated if drop zone became ozone. crushed. er, just kidding. but seriously, the routes at drop zone are and should stay heady. whether they be pure trad, heady mixed, or aid. so far there is no "bolts only" or "sport" climb, and based upon both the dominant trad ethic and the tiny amount of uncolonized rock left at this point, i feel safe saying there won't be one. put me on the record. i've always been a little defensive and said "there is significant trad" on each of the routes i put up there - but it's also true. it's true because none of us have even considered the concept of connecting the bolts/dots up a face. each of my routes climbs primarily cracks, but i've been bold/controversial/stupid/willing enough to put a bolt or two on the sections of face that break up the cracks. does that cut against the grain of "no bolts?" of course. but aren't they still dominantly trad lines? don't they demand the same skills - and thus keep away climbers who haven't invested in trad skills - as the neighboring routes? trad is rad, but a little diversity will not undermine the crag's dominant trad character. these are the kinds of thing jim and i talked about. at least that's my take...here we go... again...)

...is there an implied obligation to keep one's FAs clean?... aside from the very few FAs i have been fortunate enough to do groundup, which was only because the climb was already clean enough that it COULD be groundup (and thus couldn't lapse into obscurity due to getting dirty), i feel that obligation. even if i never put it that way before. but usually (i.e. i am in portland, not bend) i wind up having to take the time to rap in and clean the moss and choss on any less than overhanging chunk of stone. that's when i start to feel a sense that with the cleaning i am doing - no matter how much or how little - i am destroying what has existed in its little niche for centuries or millennia, and i start to make a barely-conscious vow that this climb will be "worth it." and by that i mean, this is a route that i will complete (in terms of no bolts, or needing bolts) in a way that keeps me leading it unrehearsed for years to come, and a route i would tell a good friend to try and onsight. (there might be normal to big fall potential, but it ought to be clean) always always with no bolts as the ideal, but when there simply is no gear and the fall appears unacceptable... anyway, so to me there is an implied duty to keep repeating the climb and keep it from lapsing into obscurity. if it wasn't worth repeating, why be so selfish as to destroy so much life, so much of the natural environment, just for the brief ego stroke of "another FA ?" climbs need love too! (i wasn't really sensitive to my actions when i put up my first few routes, but eventually the truth became more clear) there wasn't a route i cleaned or a bolt i sank with a borrowed drill that i didn't feel damn sure i'd be climbing this route as long as i live here and can. i would obviously hope that everyone else is equally amped on their routes and agonizes over serious trundling or placing fixed pro because it's a profound act. but groundup FAs? f*&^, it, you're just trying not to fall, clean that s(^!

newsflash: jim and i talked and we're good. still need to have a summit meeting though. thanks for watching! Zaaaap! ps - this would have made an awesome april fool's joke, especially with kevin doing the original posting. pps - sorry to be a drama queen but IMHO this situation called for some attention to be paid

we'll all laugh about it later on. i'm going to see opdycke later today, right around 4:20.

hey tyler, what's up. you ever had a bolt chopped by a friend of yours? maybe you have. how'd it feel? anyway, if it's selfish to want to understand who has the right to drill bolts, and to chop bolts, and why those rights exist, and to stand up for bolts i drilled, i'm selfish to the core. plus those bolts and hangers cost me $20!! i got 2 kids to feed and that was my bolt allocation for the first half of 2009! you know i love ya. and i think that if you don't climb at drop zone you have every right to think we are total losers with nothing better to do. it's all true.

bolt wars are for the last century. violence begets violence. we are evolved. me and my friends can take the higher road out of here, but i am doing everything i can to set the record straight about what happened, and that might ruffle some feathers. i've got kenny and kyle in on a summit meeting. i'm sure i'll get tyler, arent, stewart and kevbone there at a minimum. probably joseph too. it's pointless unless bill and jim make it, and kyle seems to think he can get them there. please do! who am i missing? isn't there a justin that bill climbs with?

finally, some laughs. ground-up solo aid-climbing really is the best way to break your leg. better than breaking your leg on a sport climb, eh?

i agree the fuss is a shame. there is no natural pro to be had by the 2 bolts. i am here to answer questions, so: i can lead P1 of jim's young warriors and skip every bolt, but i would never chop those bolts. same goes for dozens of routes in portland.

anyway, i guess the only logical thing to do is to call a far side summit meeting. PLEASE P.M. ME IF INTERESTED this probably should have been done 1 or 2 years ago, because it seems like these 2 bolts got more of a "symbolic chop" rather than on their own merits. lots of people on this site have been there and have offered their opinions on the crag. this is a chance for us all to be on our best behavior and try to find some harmony. while i obviously am upset with bill and jim, and have said things here that make them look bad, above all i really in my heart want to be friends with both of them. and if nobody else wants to have the meeting, i guess we'll just keep on muddling forward without really learning anything. again, PLEASE PM me if you are interested in getting together some night to try to right by this crag some of us have grown to, gulp, love.

final thought: i am not blameless here. as bill rightly points out to me in private emails. he says i have a listening problem. i think he's partially right. bill and jim both say that they "warned me" not to do it. let's assume they did, and that somehow i misunderstood. let's assume that my act of 2 bolts in 55 feet on a spicy route offended their notion that they own the crag and are keeping it safe for future generations. in that case, they saw my 2 bolts as an act of aggression. in that case, were they right to chop my 2 bolts even if we are friends? and when did i become the enemy? i put up 5 routes in 3 years at the drop zone. i keep my mouth shut and bring very few people there. but my 2 bolts are the problem, and i'm not even worth calling first?

again, i look up to bill and jim as mentors of a style i want to emulate, and i feel pretty mindfuc% that jim felt strongly enough that he would chop my bolts without even calling me first. i mean, on the phone he told me to do it. 20 minutes after i got the route's second scent he congratulted me and tyler. again, what do i do now? where is the high road? has any bolt war ever ended well for either party? i have called jim and he won't call me back. i gave bill my phone number yesterday but he hasn't called me. I WAS HOPING THIS WOULD BE A PRIVATE MATTER, THEN I SAW BILL POSTING ON THIS THREAD AND OF COURSE FELT COMPELLED TO ADD MY THREE CENTS.

so what do i do now? my elders never toproped this route. bill told me he in writing he never toproped it, and didn't know anyone who had. they didn't install the anchor. (stewart did, and he told me to do it, even if he thinks he and ryan toproped parts of it) the route doesn't squeeze bill's route to the right - and even if it did, isn't that a subject for discussion, not chopping immediately? bill and jim freely admit they have not even climbed the route, even on TR. i have 5 routes with 12 bolts at drop zone. that's 2-3 bolts per route, and only where there are no cracks. every route requires 5.9 or 5.10 climbing on gear. THAT IS 3 YEARS WORTH OF ROUTE DEVELOPMENT BY ME!!! i am hardly turning this place into ozone! i stand by that track record. anybody who leads my routes is free to skip the few bolts they will find. but i doubt you will.

so, i go to the crag on saturday and i see my bolts are chopped. i see bill drilling bolts above and he tells me he has no idea who chopped my line but he wishes he had chopped it. he repeats it for effect. jim shows up, and bill tells me jim chopped them. maybe bill didn't know until that moment who chopped thm i walk over to jim and say, you know my number, why didn't you call me? you were at my bachelor party, i invited you to my wedding, etc. i thought we were friends. bill mutters some stuff like "we warned you." you know, the rock police thing.

so, bill tells me the route hasn't been done as far as he knows. i go talk to stewart, as it's his anchor, and he says he and ryan might have toproped it, but ryan won't care, and he tells me to go do it. so i decide to do it. weeks later, opdycke calls me to ask me to wait so he can see the rock, but when i ask him if he really wants to be the rock police he says "i trust you man, go do it." a few weeks later, tyler kamm leads it for the FA (i let him get it, it was nice to share) and i get the second ascent, jim shows up. we show him our new line and he says "Congratulations, nice job!!!!" hardly what you would hear from someone who in march 2010 claims he warned you not to do the line!!!

ok, so i'm trying to be a good guy, asking the history of the route and assuming nothing. HERE IS BILL'S REPLY: "At the Far Side, I've tried to adopt the style that Jim wanted since he turned me onto the spot and it's his dream. He wanted a place near town with opportunities for climbers to climb cracks and learn climbing that isn't like inside of a gym. As part of that, anytime a route could get toproped from a crack, we were toproping it, writing it as a TR FA and just leaving it. Specifically NOT putting in bolts, which would change the character of the place. If you name it and write up a description, I'll put it in the guide as it hasn't been toproped till you did it (or that anyone has claimed). What you do of course, may not be what I do. I've been trying to follow Jims lead and avoid gratuitous bolting. For myself, I think if anyone does find that they must put in bolts, put in enough to keep folks off the deck." >

so, i've established jim - and especially bill - did not show me this place, and bill came later. moving on, i toproped the route in question last november. I THEN SENT BILL THIS EMAIL BECAUSE I RESPECT MY ELDERS (EDITED SLIGHTLY FOR BREVITY, BUT NOT CONTEXT): "hey bill. i went to drop zone yesterday and led your route boo coup. > > anyway, while lowering off i then toproped the line to the left, and just to the right of the dihedral arent led (he named it "good vibrations") > > have you toproped this chunk of stone? i threw off several fist and football sized blocks on the lower, and saw no hint of chalk, but that doesn't mean you or someone else han't toproped it before. it seemed like 5.9/10a for the first 3/4 of the route, then a hard 10plus/11minus section on the upper slab. it also in no way touches either boo coup or good vibrations. i know this because i followed it while my gear was still in boo coup, and i never even saw my pieces, let alone had the chance to touch them. > > i value your opionion, as you of course know any and all history about this potential line, and i am thinking of leading the route after i add between 1 and 3 bolts. the first bolt would be pretty high, like 18-20 feet, and the next bolt will be up like 35-40 feet up, so it will hardly be a sport climb, and more in the spirit of boo coup. so, what do you think? take care, bryan."

This is bryan Smith. the 2 bolts chopped were mine. They are the only 2 bolts on a 55 foot route. They are 25 feet apart and not near cracks. i went to Drop Zone in 2007 after mark and stewart found the crag. opdycke had been there in 1985 but had not been back since. i started putting up routes in 2007 and THEN jim and bill started showing up in 2008. bill's guide reflects this it is important to note i was not brought there by Bill or Jim. this point, since they feel it is significant, has to be made. they seem to have confused their memories and believe they showed me and mark and stewart and arent and ryan this place. they did not.

i agree with RuMR. what a tool. and he does a disservice to climbing by describing it the way he does. but enough on that dork. i have a 2 and and almost-4 year old. i hope they become climbers, but i'm using reverse psychology. i'd rather have them begging to tag along when i go climbing, as opposed to me forcing it on them. i feel this way because i swam competitively from age 4 on, but burned out by age 14 or so. i would hate to see my kids peak as climbers at like age 10, then be completely burned out just as they are getting old enough to belay me or go on real climbing weekends and trips. and at the end of the day, parenting is about being supportive of your kids and their hobbies and helping them become who they are - not forcefeeding them your passion because you can't handle being a "normal" parent.