MervGriffin

If you're referring to me....I listen alright, but that doesn't require that I agree or produce some sort of anticipated or desirable response. And a good day to you, sir!

I think I do, but maybe we can discuss that over a SnackPack sometime. Just give me one!!!!

That's quite a statement from a stranger! Look at how you communicate, sparky...it ain't nice. Perhaps you can join Alpine K as another foul-mouthed amateur expert on my life and activities. Actually I climb quite a bit but you're not in my loop. Have a nice day. P.S...if you represent "the climbing community", I'll stick to my own clique.

Whoever gave that advice should get away from "moderating" and get a job writing patter for "Dr. Phil." ...."cuddle up in your book nook and read a Victorian novel....take a long walk on the beach....look for rainbows...just go away, gurl!" Speaking objectively? [i.e. "in my opinion ] And we all know how we should appreciate and value the unsolicited advice of strangers! I never thought I'd find myself sticking up for The 'bone; we've sparred in the past, but I think he's got some fine points. Although I don't think reposting personal messages is particularly good form, he made the choice to do so and it's indeed very revealing: some moderator suggesting that he bug out of climbing and do something else for a while because they don't like the TONE of his posts on an interent site. This is bona-fide horsesheit.. Give me a break! He's probably one of the more accomplished of the younger climbers on this site and he's contributed a lot of fine stuff. And then watch the dog and pony show as various "toughies" jump out with the clubs to give him a pounding. What's with some of these "moderators" anyway? I have recently experienced it myself when I brought up the quickdraws at Alpental and at least three moderators decided to make it a personal issue about me and heaped on the abuse. One is a vulgar first-class taunter and another indeed fancies himself as some sort of mind-reader who insinuates you are a liar if you disagree with his feelings. "But you deserve it and you have a long history of being an A-pipe.....blah, blah, blah, blah....etc." They got there little meetings where they apparently decide who to banish. There's a good chance we're both on the agenda for the next one. Maybe "Lambone" will soon be a distant memory ala "Dwayner"; "avatars" found unappealing by the moderators and banished to the trash-heap. Don't let them get you down, 'bone: consider the sources. P.S. I do hold moderators to a higher standard on this board, in AND out of their subject domains. If there job is to "moderate", some of these folks are rather immoderate themselves.

Try this: "post-modern uber-babble" and see if your picture comes up. If that doesn't work, try "antagonistic stranger" and "unworthy of humoring".

Hey Sexy-Cocoa! Nice dissertation....you got it about 85% correct in your own whacked-out fashion. Good job, Sparky! Gather enough of that post-modernist uber-babble and find yourself a publisher! I'll ask for an autographed copy.

Do most agree now...that these Alpental guys should retrieve their stuff and not leave it there? Do these climbs all necessarily require bolts? Can't they be protected partially if not mostly clean despite the additional effort required? Or is it too inconvenient and annoying to fall, back-off, and then get your gear back? They're blocky overhangs: could be lots of gear placements. You could ride a snowmobile to the base of these "routes" [not in a wilderness area, they say], and get the full-on artificial experience, especially if the quickdraws are waitin'4ya!

Mr. Chocolate: Your post has added NOTHING to this matter other than, as someone else stated, to attack the messenger. If you've got something of substance to contribute to the topic...say it...otherwise, sit-down. P.S. I make no apologies for my original post.

Thanks, Will, for your useful insights. I have to disagree with you that this is all about VISUAL impact. That is part of it, for sure, but I think that there are other issues too. Here's how I feel about it: 1)Leaving little trace means taking your mess home. If you're not physically climbing on it, take your stuff down at the end of the day. It's ugly and you have no right to leave that sort of junk in the woods. I pack out other people's gum wrappers I find in the wilderness; why can't these people pack out their gear? Too lazy to make the effort? Don't want to lead it from the bottom and make the effort to reclip their own bolts? 2)It is like "pissing" your mark on the rock. This gets into another controversial issue: "the project" , which I personally think has little validity if it is on public land [please don't start up that one in this topic]. The quick-draws of uncertain vintage and quality might prevent others from trying it (although in this case I think the route is bogus...part of my notion that bolts should be avoided if a route can be top-roped.)

Sure. I'll meet with you and your buddy sometime in-person (so as not to bore the many who have already heard it) and explain it all to you: the history and the philosophy. It will be interesting to learn if you guys have the same foul-mouthed, juvenile personality in-person as you do here. Don't worry. I'm not a violent guy and I won't be backed up by a bunch of thugs. P.S. I assume "Rudy" is "RUMR" and I see by your web-site that your name is "Paul". You act like you know me on a first-name basis but I don't think I've ever met either of you.

"RUMR" say: Here were your questions: First of all, these questions are irrelevant to the subject which is about somebody(s) leaving their gear on their little sporty-project in the mountains. There are already enough distractions from the subject as it is including moderators and others (including "RUMR") attacking me, etc. rather than addressing the real issue. My opinions on sport-bolting and bolting in general can be found in numerous topics elsewhere. If you’re actually serious about my views, they can be discussed some other time or place. Secondly, given your history of vulgar retorts, I don't feel compelled to answer you. Here are some of your contributions to this topic so far: Give them a look and ask yourself why I’d want to spend time giving you a serious answer. (I made an effort to address a few of the other folks at length because they were moderators and I found their comments especially unacceptable.) “quit posting photos of yourself and relatives, prof. wank... "Feel free to clip any draws you see hanging around...its playground equipment for the children...you see, we can't all be growed up like you, don..." "so tired...so tired out....so lame...need to find a photo to post..." "hey pope...how bout this for a >=0 contribution?" "Go fuck off... you are a bonafide idiot and a master of hyperbole..." "again, go fuck off..." "I'm 12...how old are you? my guess...93. sorry that's the best i could do...couldn't find any lame pics to post" "My response was not a "retort" in the classical sense...it was an end to my discussion as in "well you can fuck off then"..."

How old are you? Would you like to contribute something other than your foul mouth to the subject?

Put to stud????? It's still there for the leading if you're up for it! Bold folks in older days seemed to manage it!

You have a long history of believing you have swami-like powers to read minds and intentions (at least in my case). You're wasting your time and you're not very good at it. You also seem to be a card-carrying member of The Tone-Police. I was pointing out a specific example of what I consider to be highly unexceptable behavior. You and two of your fellow "moderators" decided to make it personal. I don't necessarily anticipate the reactions that follow my posts although the one I would hope for is that someone will reclaim their abandoned junk and perhaps reconsider what they're doing, and others will think about the issue. As I noted to your moderating colleague, "Alpine-K", I'm not particularly interested in critiquing individuals, I am addressing behaviors. Attacking me personally is irrelevant and obscures the topic. Apart from displacements of the subject toward me, I think some very interesting perspectives are being brought out in this topic. If you care about access, you better be concerned. If it turns out that things involving a real issue get stirred up....you got a problem with that? I see some awareness being spread. I set out to point out a situation that I find obnoxious; people leaving their junk in the mountains. To me it is doubly disgusting because it's somebody's little "sporto-project" edged into the mountains, and as you know, I strongly question the legitimacy of sport-climbing. I'm entitled to express my outrage whether you like my tone or not. I'm not crying "poor me". I'm not looking for your worthless pity. I just find it pathetic that rather than addressing the situation I brought up, the issue turns back to me personally...my tone is inappropriate...I don't climb so much anymore...I'm a big jerk....etc. Look at your own damn tone. By the way, this is probably the first time I've brought up the topic of leaving a line of quick-draws in the mountains. The last time I saw this was as some sort of "legitimate" practice was in the Smith Rocks long before cc.com came along and was surprised to see this sort of thing taking place where it is now. Do you really think it is the same point for the "159th time" other than once again, the abuse of bolting (in my opinion) is once again a major contributing factor? Have a nice day.

I started out by pointing out a situation. No names were involved. I am mostly interested in critiquing behaviors, not particular individuals. You along with two of your fellow "moderators" made it personal. Thanks for reminding me, and likely others, once again, that communicating with "Alpine K" is an UTTER WASTE OF TIME! Have a nice life! P.S. Dwayner sucks!.....Everybody hates Dwayner!...Dwayner can't climb..... Feel better now? I bet you do!

I can fix that, if you like. Does this look familiar? It's Saturday morning. You're on the internet. You're not climbing. That's simply untrue. Interesting. Since I've only soloed City Park ONCE and that was after I bought a Solo-aid device around the year 2000. Every time you walked along the wall, eh? With your laser-like memory, you watched and now recall all the big excitement! I don't really climb much at Index. Actually, I do have a problem with the bolt ladder on City Park. It is over-bolted and probably at least half of them can be skipped. What you don't seem to understand is that I don't think bolts should be completely banned; they have their rare place, but I do think that they are regularly being used with callous disregard for the fact that they are permanent alterations. Nope. I'm not interested in finding them or dealing with them. I prefer instead to offer my views here or elsewhere. They can get a WHOLE RANGE OF OPINIONS regarding their magnificent "creations" right here on cc.com; more opinions than just mine. I've been through this whole crap before with MattP. You guys can despise my approach all you like; you can do it differently if you want. Since I don't deal with "route-setters", I'd have to say no, although I can confidently say that a number of folks have told me that they have been convinced not to engage in such behavior. Why don't you go out climbing? Maybe Index... where I might be soloing City Park RIGHT NOW! Hurry up or you'll miss that exciting top-steppin' #3 stopper placement!

Look! "Alpine K" responds....AGAIN. Gay??? Absolutely not. Sexual preference has nothing to do with it. Weak??? Yes...and I don't mean weak in the physical sense of some of its practioners possess amazing strength. I mean weak in concept and practice. There probably are some gay sport-climbers but that's none of my business. No one requires that you or anyone else agree. Hmmmm. Four pages of it so far including your nasty retorts. Some of it has brought up interesting points. Those might be your approaches of choice, but not mine. I don't particularly support the Access Fund and I don't know or really care who the specific culprits are. You don't like my style: too bad. I personally think your's sucks but to each his own. By the way, I wasn't looking for a debate in my original post. I was pointing out a situation. You don't know much about me, pal, or what I do, so don't pretend you do. What's next?: "I climb more than you do...nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah..." Should I make a second check for the "Dwayner-doesn't-climb-much" cams you might have installed on my car or wherever? Nonsense. Do you really think I am the only climber who rejects sport? You don't have to agree with "the bluster and b.s.", i.e. your assessment of my approach. By the way, re-read many of your own posts in light of such a comment. I can answer that myself as there is really no way that you have polled all climbers. I bring awareness to other perspectives that I feel are not regularly represented here. I'd venture to say that there are large numbers of "modern" climbers who have little inkling that sport-bolting might be controverial, that bringing such into the mountains or on trad crags might cause an uproar, or that leaving your gear hanging in the woods for your own convenience might be in poor form. Actually you'd be surprised at the number of people who have either thanked me for my contributions or have positively commented on them.

Remember when you were funny? I don't.

No shit. I might agree with some of Don's points, but he's such a jerk about how he represents himself that I wouldn't even bother to listen to his oppinion let alone debate him. By the way Don how's that training going? When are you going to climb a 5.13? I'm still willing to pay you. How old are you, bully-boy? 15? I really don't care too much if you reject my style of discourse. Look at the horse-sheit you regularly post! How about addressing the issue instead of formenting a personal attack? (I never named names in this situation, I merely expressed my outrage.) And by the way, Karl, Kurt, or whatever your name is, the training is going great but your frat-boy challenge and pathetic "reward" are both uninteresting to me.

And they should take their toys home with them when they're done instead of leaving them on the playground like a self-centered spoiled brat because they think they might come back tomorrow or whenever. "Projects"? Nonsense. You leave a mess for others to experience and you're going to get hassled. "When I finally get that pink-point/purple-point/brown-point...it will be a SWEET masterpiece."

"Dude! Someone is taking our quick draws! They've only been there a year and Uncle Rico told me that you had to preplace all your gear and leave it there or it won't count as a real climb!"

You beat me to the punch. That was without a doubt one of the stupidest articles I've seen in that magazine. Period. Runner up would have to be that stupid article of Dave Graham, et. al. going to Europe. "UNCENSORED!!!" or some stupid shit like that. Second runner-up: That article about bouldering in Manhattan, full of skate-punk phraseology and some dude yelling "flaco!" after "sending the sickness!" somewhere in Central Park.

or trad climbers.

And what did your post add to the topic? P.S. Did you read this part? "I think, however, they should AT LEAST take their portable junk home with them when they are done playing, and strongly consider whether their permanent alterations in the form of bolt trails are worthwhile." or just the reply to Mattp's nasty post?

No. This post started out to describe a situation at a particular place. There is gear left hanging off someone's idea of a "route" in the Alpine Lakes area of the state (defined on this site as: "Region covers all Cascade peaks South of Steven's Pass and North of Mt. Rainier National Park.") Sorry that you find this topic unimportant and uninteresting, if not boring. I think it's very important. And then...there's MattP: And what you described is one valid climbing perspective - of many - (and of which I am not alone in holding) that guys like you seem to want to censor. The Mattp-style venom is to accuse me of being intentionally manipulative or to accuse me of hijacking a thread and turning it into an ethics debate. Guess what. I started the topic so there is no hijacking although I suppose it will all end up in spray where such ethical issues seem to be dumped by some moderators. I find your comments at least as stifling as you find mine. People should be mad. I described a situation as I saw it. I named no names because I don't know or really care who the culprits are. I think, however, they should AT LEAST take their portable junk home with them when they are done playing, and strongly consider whether their permanent alterations in the form of bolt trails are worthwhile.