sailBOI

The new Dosewallips Road DEIS is posted to the ONF web (all 355 pages) . The 60 day public comment period clock should be starting promptly. Ken Draft EIS - cover letter http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/olympic/projects-nu/documents/let%20release%20no%20DEIS.pdf Draft EIS - summary http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/olympic/projects-nu/documents/DEIS%20Summary.pdf Draft EIS (full text) http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/olympic/projects-nu/documents/DEIS%20May%2008.pdf

Dems rejecting Moore now : http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/7/24/142957.shtml

Your enough of loon to not realize the WSJ is by far the most right of any major newspaper..... OK, business is right wing, NY Times is neutral, right? But why are you branding me, what does that have to do with the debate at hand ?? I am actually a Libertarian, and believe in minimal government, so did our founding fathers. It is a little known fact however, that these gentleman founded the US Navy in order to deal with Islamic insurgents, the Barbary Pirates : USA deals with Islamics in the early days

I don't think I have said anything about Democrats, but if you want to talk Democrats.....Kerry supported the Patriot Act, voted for it and now want parts of it strengthened. Islamic radicals are using Western civil liberties as a weapon, here and in Europe. Do I like the Patriot Act, NO !!!! Do I think it necessary, YES , unfortunately. Where do you get off branding me a Right Wing loonie, when I post a story from the WSJ ?? There is entirely too much personal affront going on in this forum to allow a balanced debate....

If you follow that thread you will see that the moderator apologized for calling it spam, and the thread is getting good debate both there and here. The time has come to discuss the presence of a segment of "environmentalist" movement, who are dogmatically opposed to reasonable public access. These folks are ascending in the ranks, and will try to utilize the Wilderness designation to curtail access in future. I am saying beware, it is already happening in some areas now, and is likely to impact Wild Sky, this in spite of their present claims that the designation will enhance access. "It would also help maintain access to trailheads, campgrounds, and 470 miles of existing roads in immediately adjacent areas." Access guaranteed ? Guaranteed now......BUT , taken away as soon as the roads wash out, and these same groups oppose repairs !!!!!!!

I would agree with that, we should always be cautious, but I saw the other day that Sen. Dianne Feinstein said she has not heard reports of abuse of the Patriot Act.....did you read these lengthy articles I linked above?

I have been seeing lots of condemnation of the Patriot Act, and blame is focussed on Ashcroft and Bush. I have previously posted that there was wide bipartisan support for these measures when this was enacted. In the event that you are of the opinion that we need to abolish the Patriot Act, you really owe it to yourself and all of us to take the time to read this shocking account : TERROR IN THE SKY TERROR IN THE SKY 2 How many will become the next victims of Political Correctness ?

Don't be so hasty, her site has 9000 pages of material, a goodly amount of which should interest a Libertarian such as yourself......such as : http://www.nationalcenter.org/ShatteredDreams.pdf Please take the time to examine : http://www.PropertyRightsResearch.org you will find quotes such as : There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root. - Henry David Thoreau "Few men have virtue to withstand the highest bidder." - George Washington "The establishment of an American Soviet government will involve the confiscation of large landed estates in town and country, and also, the whole body of forests, mineral deposits, lakes, rivers and so on." - William Z. Foster, National Chairman of the Communist Party USA, 1932 Please remember the US Govt already owns 40% + in the West, and defacto Wilderness has expanded greatly with curtailment of NFS logging. We just need access....

There don't seem to be very many roads within the actual proposed wilderness area: http://www.wildsky.org/fram?url_id=21 In what way would the wilderness area negatively affect climbers? The effect won't be immediate, but in the long run will likely be severe. I am considerably older that many of you and have been hiking in the NW since 1972. At that time and until recently, I was a wilderness advocate and environmentalist, deciding to build a home in Brinnon so that the Olympic National Park was close at hand. I was pleased to have the Dosewallips Valley protected by the presence of the Buckhorn Wilderness to the north, and the Brothers Wilderness to the south. At the head of the Valley lay ONP, and the georgeous Dose Trailheads, Falls and Ranger station. Always an exciting place to visit, people from all over the world could be found there on any given day. Folks from the Seattle side could do Constance on a weekend, and Anderson on a 3 day weekend. Whitewater folks had a class A course marked out on the upper Dose. I never saw any user abusing the Wilderness in my many years of use. In January 02 a raging flood washed out the road about 10 miles in, leaving 5 miles to get to the ONP trail heads. We had friends visiting from Alaska that summer, and we drove up Valley to find the road gone. What a disappointment, but we all said......OK, next summer we will go! The next summer came, and no road ! I started investigation this with the Olympic Natl Forest, as that section of road is on their land. I was astounded to hear that several environmental groups were objecting to the repair of the road. I started reading their newsletters and was stunned to find that they take a literal interpretation of the word "untrammeled", as it appears in the Wilderness Act. Essentially it's claimed to mean.....no people ( or few )! Shelters in the High Country are to be removed, the Dose Campground is to be DOWNgraded to backcountry and the ROAD CLOSED. Folks, last time I checked, this was a NATIONAL PARK, intended for all Americans. They claim that the cars interfere with the migration patterns of the endangered Elk ( they are not endangered ), of course they play the "Spotted Owl" card. Although there are 1.5 million acres of ONP & ONF lands, bearing about 50 million trees......as you would expect the 4 acre area needing to be partially cleared to repair the road bears trees predating Columbus ( but there are stumps from previous logging ). The biggest claim made is that the two wilderness areas that I loved having there are USED AS AN EXCUSE to eliminate the road......the wilderness areas need to be merged and become seamless. Nevermind that Congress and the President left the access corridor there when the wilderness was created, never mind that most of us want the corridor. This is not about democracy, but about control by a small minority. Same thing is happening to the Carbon River access road at Rainier, I understand. But some of these same groups are pushing for Wild Sky, and using guaranteed access as a benefit.........I am saying, look out for these folks, they are more about the Wildlands Project that they are about access. WILDLANDS - need to be understood SO, the Dose Trailhead is now only lightly used, and users are obligated to hike a 10 mile round trip on a relatively level road. This rules out all the uses mentioned above. If this sort of thing continues, folks from the Seattle area will have fewer, more crowded options for hiking! Thanks for listening..... www.brinnonprosperity.org ps: the decision to rebuild the Dosewallips Rd has been withdrawn by the ONF, as a result of 2 Appeals filed by these groups....we will now be at least 4 years total without reasonable access to the Dose facility. Be careful which groups you support or donate to !!

CLOSED - KEEP OUT - The message to all you Climbers ! The Wild Sky Wilderness is being pushed by some of the same groups that are trying to Keep the Dosewallips Access Rd. closed. Their claim that Wild Sky will ensure continued access is a FABRICATION. As soon as a road washes out, they will be there with a KEEP OUT SIGN ! You have until this Thursday to send a letter to the Congress for inclusion in the Public Hearings scheduled. Sample Letter : My Letter to House Resources Committee Chairman Richard Pombo: Opposition to H.R. 822, the Wild Sky Wilderness Act of 2003 July 16, 2004 To: House Resources Committee Chairman Richard Pombo resources.committee@mail.house.gov From: Miss Julie Kay Smithson propertyrights@earthlink.net Subject: Opposition to H.R. 822, the Wild Sky Wilderness Act of 2003 Chairman Pombo: My concerns are not listed necessarily in order of personal importance; rather, they are simply what comes to mind when I consider the far-reaching implications -- one might even call them tentacles -- of H.R. 822. This bill truly reaches into the pocketbook of every taxpaying American, every consumer, every tourist, and extracts something, whether tangible or not. Every concern I have relating to this bill bodes ill for it. It MUST, for to support any part of it is to disenfranchise myself from all that I cherish about my country. Your 1996 book, coauthored with Joseph Farah, titled "This Land is Our Land", details "how to end the war on private property." I'm sure you cherish the lands that you and your family have owned for many generations in and near Tracy, California. Wherever there is federal lust for more and more and more land and resources to remove from the tax rolls, further encumbering the already overburdened American taxpayer -- and ever more often also seeking removal from the public access -- you have my attention. These lands are lands that someone cherishes. Often, these families have lived, like your own family, for multiple generations on the same lands, working at the same honest work, in a committed and long-term partnership with the lands and waters. Whether that relationship -- granted, built upon trial and error, for that is the way mankind learns how better to steward his Genesis-mandated job over all the earth -- is based in farming, timber harvest, ranching, mineral extraction, fishing, or other responsible use, it is something that many Americans and their families have diligently invested blood, sweat and tears equity in. Many of these same families now find themselves at the merciless hands of those professing to be 'environmentalists' or 'conservationists' -- when the truth is, those using those terms care little about either the environment or real conservation, which means not wasting. It does not mean NOT USING AT ALL. That is what "wilderness designation" is, Chairman Pombo. It means NOT USING AT ALL: none of the resources. The 'carrot' on the stick that is promised is cursory passive recreational access, while the stick lies in wait to 'assist' those that have become, through no fault of their own, inholders. One way or another, they are to become "willing sellers". This is an ugly, dishonest way to treat American property rights -- and you wrote a book about it, so few should know this as well as you and Joseph Farah. As one who has recreated in most of America's contiguous states, from horseback riding to walking, and from nature photography to snowmobiling, I have comments on H.R. 822 that reflect an aging baby boomer tourist's interests. I cherish access to lands that my taxpayer dollars have paid for. As one who has traveled most of America's contiguous states in a twenty-seven year and 3.1 million mile safe driving career as a truck driver, I have comments on H.R. 822 that relate to both America's economy and to access issues. The area targeted by H.R. 822 contains roads -- because it is an area utilized by people. It is not as it was before Christopher Columbus set his booted foot upon our shores on a day in 1492. That in itself should raise a raft of Red Flags -- that anyone would pick, out of thin air, after all the millennia and various 'settlement' by various 'ethnicities' -- 'pre-European settlement' or 'pre-Columbian settlement' as the magic date before which time all must be 'restored.' Hogwash and balderdash, say I! I cherish and appreciate American grown and mined products and those that work so hard within my own country to see that such renewable bounty is available to me and mine, and I believe with every fiber of my being that using our own resources responsibly -- not becoming a 'third world nation' by default, through the hidden horrors of global 'free trade' that is neither fair nor trade, but is in reality the wholesale and wanton destruction of our Constitutional Republic and our sovereignty -- is TRUE 'sustainability.' We used to call it being responsible, being self-sufficient. It made us great. We need to remember what made us great and stop apologizing for it. Let us use our own resources, within our own sovereign borders, and that means NO MORE WILDERNESS DESIGNATIONS: not ONE SQUARE INCH MORE, and over time, a LOT of acres LESS of such areas. I don't tout developing all of America, but our natural resources are OURS, to be used responsibly and intelligently, but to be USED. They belong to no one else, despite the hoopla -- other than whatever deals may have been agreed to without our public knowledge. Thank God we have Marbury v. Madison (1803): All laws repugnant to the [uS] Constitution are null and void. This includes all treaties and 'dark of night', closed-door dirty deals to use our American resources -- including our American human resources -- as collateral. As a property rights researcher, I have comments on H.R. 822 that relate to all the facets of responsible resource providing -- i.e., property rights and freedom. You have just read them. As a rural homeowner, I have comments on H.R. 822 that relate to the increased and very real threat of wildfires and other emergency services that are put directly in harm's way by such proposals for increased "wilderness designations." There is nothing in such "wilderness designations" that is of any benefit to "future generations" -- whatever that means. Future generations of what? Of who? Certainly "future generations" does not mean middle-class, hardworking Americans, who even now are being charged double -- in both taxes AND in FEES to enter, park at and use our own federal parks and other areas. This is criminal -- there was a tea party held in Boston Harbor over such things, many years ago -- but that is a matter for another letter and another time. As a taxpayer, I have comments on H.R. 822 that relate to the ever-increasing burden -- much of it Constitutionally illegal -- on American taxpayers, and the added burden inflicted on us with every acre that is removed from the tax rolls. We need bear no more -- we should and we MUST bear much less. The obesity mentioned among legislators has nothing to do with physical poundage. There is a massive cancer of out-of-control lust for power and money that will never be sated so long as there is unlimited access to American taxpayers' pocketbooks. Terrible as it may sound, the deals cut in D.C. have been the main contributors to each and every one of my comments and concerns. America is beautiful and America is The Beautiful, but what is being done by using the stalking horse of "wilderness designation", like the hideous and many-headed Medusa of the Endangered Species Act, which a member of your committee will chair a meeting about in Klamath Falls, Oregon, in a few short hours, is neither Constitutional nor American. It is criminal, and should be handcuffed and incarcerated wherever bad legislation goes when it is proven harmful to America and to Americans. Thank you, Chairman Pombo. I will be watching this bill and the actions of the House Resources Committee closely, knowing that you will have intense lobbying by non-governmental organizations pushing you to run this bill through. As it is part of a true statesman's character to disallow that which is wrong, I hope you will look to the Congressman from Colorado, Tom Tancredo, and the standards he has set regarding sovereignty and borders and Illegal Aliens, and take all that is good from his shining example, to apply to these 'pieces of work' like H.R. 822. To have such courage and moral fiber as he is to be -- like former Congresswoman from Idaho, Helen Chenoweth-Hage -- a true statesman. We need more like this, Congressman Pombo, on that I believe we can agree. You have shown promise in this regard. Perhaps my letter to you will help nourish that spark and fan it into a flame that the most determined "wilderness proponent" cannot squelch. I pray so. 'Nuff said. Miss Julie Kay Smithson 213 Thorn Locust Lane London, Ohio 43140-8844 740-857-1239 (voice/no fax) propertyrights@earthlink.net http://www.PropertyRightsResearch.org ==================================================== Urgent Action Needed on Wild Sky Wilderness Proposal H.R. 822 - Please Submit YOUR Testimony! Thanking you in advance for taking the time to do this. No matter where you live or what you do for a living, please take a few minutes and send an email to resources.committee@mail.house.gov or fax 202-225-5929 to Chairman Richard Pombo at the House Resources Committee expressing your personal opposition to the creation of ANY new wilderness designation, including -- but not limited to -- the Wild Sky Wilderness Proposal, also known as House Bill 822. A gentleman in Washington State, Ed Husmann, asks that you provide him with a copy of your letters so that he may hand-carry a hopefully HUGE stack of them to Washington, D.C. for next Thursday's hearing. You can email him your letter at edforforests@msn.com or fax it to him at 360-793-7870, but please know that by so doing, you give a great help to not only him and other Washingtonians, but also to everyone that values the ability to enjoy more about lands and waters than a CLOSED sign, which is what H.R. 822 would do.

CLOSED - KEEP OUT - The message to all you Climbers ! The Wild Sky Wilderness is being pushed by some of the same groups that are trying to Keep the Dosewallips Access Rd. closed. Their claim that Wild Sky will ensure continued access is a FABRICATION. As soon as a road washes out, they will be there with a KEEP OUT SIGN ! You have until this Thursday to send a letter to the Congress for inclusion in the Public Hearings scheduled. Sample Letter : My Letter to House Resources Committee Chairman Richard Pombo: Opposition to H.R. 822, the Wild Sky Wilderness Act of 2003 July 16, 2004 To: House Resources Committee Chairman Richard Pombo resources.committee@mail.house.gov From: Miss Julie Kay Smithson propertyrights@earthlink.net Subject: Opposition to H.R. 822, the Wild Sky Wilderness Act of 2003 Chairman Pombo: My concerns are not listed necessarily in order of personal importance; rather, they are simply what comes to mind when I consider the far-reaching implications -- one might even call them tentacles -- of H.R. 822. This bill truly reaches into the pocketbook of every taxpaying American, every consumer, every tourist, and extracts something, whether tangible or not. Every concern I have relating to this bill bodes ill for it. It MUST, for to support any part of it is to disenfranchise myself from all that I cherish about my country. Your 1996 book, coauthored with Joseph Farah, titled "This Land is Our Land", details "how to end the war on private property." I'm sure you cherish the lands that you and your family have owned for many generations in and near Tracy, California. Wherever there is federal lust for more and more and more land and resources to remove from the tax rolls, further encumbering the already overburdened American taxpayer -- and ever more often also seeking removal from the public access -- you have my attention. These lands are lands that someone cherishes. Often, these families have lived, like your own family, for multiple generations on the same lands, working at the same honest work, in a committed and long-term partnership with the lands and waters. Whether that relationship -- granted, built upon trial and error, for that is the way mankind learns how better to steward his Genesis-mandated job over all the earth -- is based in farming, timber harvest, ranching, mineral extraction, fishing, or other responsible use, it is something that many Americans and their families have diligently invested blood, sweat and tears equity in. Many of these same families now find themselves at the merciless hands of those professing to be 'environmentalists' or 'conservationists' -- when the truth is, those using those terms care little about either the environment or real conservation, which means not wasting. It does not mean NOT USING AT ALL. That is what "wilderness designation" is, Chairman Pombo. It means NOT USING AT ALL: none of the resources. The 'carrot' on the stick that is promised is cursory passive recreational access, while the stick lies in wait to 'assist' those that have become, through no fault of their own, inholders. One way or another, they are to become "willing sellers". This is an ugly, dishonest way to treat American property rights -- and you wrote a book about it, so few should know this as well as you and Joseph Farah. As one who has recreated in most of America's contiguous states, from horseback riding to walking, and from nature photography to snowmobiling, I have comments on H.R. 822 that reflect an aging baby boomer tourist's interests. I cherish access to lands that my taxpayer dollars have paid for. As one who has traveled most of America's contiguous states in a twenty-seven year and 3.1 million mile safe driving career as a truck driver, I have comments on H.R. 822 that relate to both America's economy and to access issues. The area targeted by H.R. 822 contains roads -- because it is an area utilized by people. It is not as it was before Christopher Columbus set his booted foot upon our shores on a day in 1492. That in itself should raise a raft of Red Flags -- that anyone would pick, out of thin air, after all the millennia and various 'settlement' by various 'ethnicities' -- 'pre-European settlement' or 'pre-Columbian settlement' as the magic date before which time all must be 'restored.' Hogwash and balderdash, say I! I cherish and appreciate American grown and mined products and those that work so hard within my own country to see that such renewable bounty is available to me and mine, and I believe with every fiber of my being that using our own resources responsibly -- not becoming a 'third world nation' by default, through the hidden horrors of global 'free trade' that is neither fair nor trade, but is in reality the wholesale and wanton destruction of our Constitutional Republic and our sovereignty -- is TRUE 'sustainability.' We used to call it being responsible, being self-sufficient. It made us great. We need to remember what made us great and stop apologizing for it. Let us use our own resources, within our own sovereign borders, and that means NO MORE WILDERNESS DESIGNATIONS: not ONE SQUARE INCH MORE, and over time, a LOT of acres LESS of such areas. I don't tout developing all of America, but our natural resources are OURS, to be used responsibly and intelligently, but to be USED. They belong to no one else, despite the hoopla -- other than whatever deals may have been agreed to without our public knowledge. Thank God we have Marbury v. Madison (1803): All laws repugnant to the [uS] Constitution are null and void. This includes all treaties and 'dark of night', closed-door dirty deals to use our American resources -- including our American human resources -- as collateral. As a property rights researcher, I have comments on H.R. 822 that relate to all the facets of responsible resource providing -- i.e., property rights and freedom. You have just read them. As a rural homeowner, I have comments on H.R. 822 that relate to the increased and very real threat of wildfires and other emergency services that are put directly in harm's way by such proposals for increased "wilderness designations." There is nothing in such "wilderness designations" that is of any benefit to "future generations" -- whatever that means. Future generations of what? Of who? Certainly "future generations" does not mean middle-class, hardworking Americans, who even now are being charged double -- in both taxes AND in FEES to enter, park at and use our own federal parks and other areas. This is criminal -- there was a tea party held in Boston Harbor over such things, many years ago -- but that is a matter for another letter and another time. As a taxpayer, I have comments on H.R. 822 that relate to the ever-increasing burden -- much of it Constitutionally illegal -- on American taxpayers, and the added burden inflicted on us with every acre that is removed from the tax rolls. We need bear no more -- we should and we MUST bear much less. The obesity mentioned among legislators has nothing to do with physical poundage. There is a massive cancer of out-of-control lust for power and money that will never be sated so long as there is unlimited access to American taxpayers' pocketbooks. Terrible as it may sound, the deals cut in D.C. have been the main contributors to each and every one of my comments and concerns. America is beautiful and America is The Beautiful, but what is being done by using the stalking horse of "wilderness designation", like the hideous and many-headed Medusa of the Endangered Species Act, which a member of your committee will chair a meeting about in Klamath Falls, Oregon, in a few short hours, is neither Constitutional nor American. It is criminal, and should be handcuffed and incarcerated wherever bad legislation goes when it is proven harmful to America and to Americans. Thank you, Chairman Pombo. I will be watching this bill and the actions of the House Resources Committee closely, knowing that you will have intense lobbying by non-governmental organizations pushing you to run this bill through. As it is part of a true statesman's character to disallow that which is wrong, I hope you will look to the Congressman from Colorado, Tom Tancredo, and the standards he has set regarding sovereignty and borders and Illegal Aliens, and take all that is good from his shining example, to apply to these 'pieces of work' like H.R. 822. To have such courage and moral fiber as he is to be -- like former Congresswoman from Idaho, Helen Chenoweth-Hage -- a true statesman. We need more like this, Congressman Pombo, on that I believe we can agree. You have shown promise in this regard. Perhaps my letter to you will help nourish that spark and fan it into a flame that the most determined "wilderness proponent" cannot squelch. I pray so. 'Nuff said. Miss Julie Kay Smithson 213 Thorn Locust Lane London, Ohio 43140-8844 740-857-1239 (voice/no fax) propertyrights@earthlink.net http://www.PropertyRightsResearch.org ==================================================== Urgent Action Needed on Wild Sky Wilderness Proposal H.R. 822 - Please Submit YOUR Testimony! Thanking you in advance for taking the time to do this. No matter where you live or what you do for a living, please take a few minutes and send an email to resources.committee@mail.house.gov or fax 202-225-5929 to Chairman Richard Pombo at the House Resources Committee expressing your personal opposition to the creation of ANY new wilderness designation, including -- but not limited to -- the Wild Sky Wilderness Proposal, also known as House Bill 822. A gentleman in Washington State, Ed Husmann, asks that you provide him with a copy of your letters so that he may hand-carry a hopefully HUGE stack of them to Washington, D.C. for next Thursday's hearing. You can email him your letter at edforforests@msn.com or fax it to him at 360-793-7870, but please know that by so doing, you give a great help to not only him and other Washingtonians, but also to everyone that values the ability to enjoy more about lands and waters than a CLOSED sign, which is what H.R. 822 would do.

"The Secret Service has announced it is doubling its protection for John Kerry. You can understand why - with two positions on every issue, he has twice as many people mad at him." - Jay Leno "We make jokes about it but the truth is this presidential election really offers us a choice of two well-informed opposing positions on every issue. OK, they both belong to John Kerry, but they're still there." - Jay Leno "John Kerry will undergo surgery to repair his right shoulder. He originally hurt it when he suddenly switched positions on Iraq." "President Bush listed his income as $822,000. You know what John Kerry calls someone who earns $822,000? Not even worth dating." - Jay Leno "Well the good news for Democrats, now over half the country can identify a picture of John Kerry. The bad news, the majority still thinks he's the dad from 'The Munsters."' - Jay Leno "John Kerry accused President Bush of catering to the rich. You know, as opposed to John Kerry who just marries them." - Jay Leno "They say John Kerry is the first Democratic presidential candidate in history to raise $50 million in a three-month period. Actually, that's nothing. He once raised $500 million with two words: 'I do.'" - Jay Leno "Today, John Kerry announced a fool-proof plan to wipe out the $500B deficit. John Kerry has a plan, he's going to put it on his wife's Gold Card." -Craig Kilborn

For those of us flying the flag at half staff for 30 days in respect for President Reagan, we should be reminded that we will have to wear our pants around our knees for 30 days when Clinton dies. Out of respect, of course

But the Russians tried to Finish the Finns and left the Hungarians Hungry, until Ronnie took down the Wall. Capitalism has led to the Hungarians being Finished with Hunger and the Finns to Nokia ! Meanwhile the Vikings had left Greenland because it turned to Ice, and moved to Iceland because it was Green........leading to BJORK

ha! I totally blow your theory...i'm shorter than anything, finnish and live in seattle and don't drive a truck...hahahaha Yah, but the Fins aren't really Scandanavians now are they? I was told by my Swedish secretary that the Norwegians, Swedes, and Danes were scandanavian but the Fins were not. I really don't know , I'm just spreading rumours...pun definitey intended, and innuendo. DAMN, I wish I had a Swedish secretary, I like Swedish massage