Norman_Clyde
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Posts posted by Norman_Clyde
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I'm way late to post on this, because the thread exploded in length last week and I didn't have time at work to keep up with it. No recent posts from Anna, who I imagine is sick and tired of taking a beating.
This subject is hugely important. However, it is just not possible to do it justice in a web discussion. Hats off to Tim and Jon-- there is almost always a kernel of wheat in this pile of chaff--but this thread, with people getting mistaken impressions, taking offense, etc. just points out how much of our important communication takes place nonverbally. When threads get too hot there should be some kind of steam valve that shuts it down, forcing people to communicate the old way.
Anna, most of all you should forgive yourself for making an error. You have every right to be shaken up. I know for myself that it's more upsetting to feel like I took risks with others who trusted me, and clearly you feel bad about this also. But you did not act in bad faith toward anyone. It's up to all members of a climbing party to scope each other out beforehand. It's not like you tried to deceive anybody, or told any lies about yourself.
You should also forgive yourself for asking the members of this forum for advice. This was the emotional equivalent of rapelling off of someone else's ratty old sling tied to a shallow-rooted bush. Very risky, and in this case you did not luck out. Words of criticism on this board come out sounding very harsh, even if they're not meant to. In my opinion, even if you give up climbing, you should first give yourself the chance to attain mastery of the systems involved. Take a course from a patient, nonabusive guide, or hang out with a few patient, tolerant non-professionals. If you walk away at that point, you'll feel a whole lot better than if you quit now, after getting beaten down by the voices of criticism that, however well intended, were unnecessarily harsh on you in this forum.
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So how many hours is the approach, depending on which side you take (it's Mildred vs. Flapjack lakes, right)? Five miles or so each way?
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It's true that you can not only be in dynamite shape, you may not have the slightest hint of a problem beforehand. The only way to know for sure is to get either an angiogram (which carries risks) or a new type of CT scan (which is expensive and not covered by insurance). A sound policy is to exercise (i.e. hike and climb a lot), which reduces your risk of heart attack AND makes sure you're taking advantage of the days you have left to you.
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Erden, your description of the appearance and function of your arm is very consistent with a rupture of one of the muscle bellies of the tricep. The ruptured portion retracts and forms an obvious lump under the skin, which is not usually tender to touch. The specific movement aided by that muscle tends to be weaker, but not absent, because accessory muscles remain functional (or in the case of the triceps, the other two heads of it are still functional). The prognosis for return to full function is highly dependent on how soon you get treatment. If the muscle needs to be surgically reattached, this has a much greater chance of success if it happens soon . I know you're headed to Sweden soon, but if you have any spare time at all, get yourself to an orthopedic surgeon. PM me if you want some names.
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Hiked to Snow Lake (just to the saddle, actually) with my kids, plus about 3 out of every 4 residents of the Puget Sound region, plus all their dogs. But better that people bring their dogs on a busy trail like this one, where any self-respecting snafflehound is miles away.
Had an unexpected chance to hike at Rainier today when a Dept. of Health meeting in Olympia got canceled. I was definitely not dressed for hiking, but I blew 6 bucks for a pair of beat up sneakers at Value Village. Did a loop from Longmire to Van Trump Park, back down past Comet Falls to the road, ran a mile down the road to rejoin the Wonderland Trail back to Longmire. Huckleberries and vine maple are aflame. No snow yet. Only got one blister. The sneaks will go directly back to Value Village for another round.
[ 10-15-2002, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: Norman Clyde ]
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I'm still clueless about posting actual photos onto this page, but here's another nice Hetch Hetchy photo:
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?pan:57:./temp/~ammem_98vn::@@@mdb=manz,eaa,aaeo,aaodyssey,hh,gottscho,bbpix,bbcards,magbell,berl,lbcoll,cwnyhs,cwar,consrvbib,coolbib,coplandb ib,curt,dag,fsaall,aep,fine,fmuever,dcm,cmns,cowellbib,toddbib,lomaxbib,ngp,gottlieb,alad,mcc,mymhiwebib,aipn,afcwip,fawbib,omhbib,pan,vv,wpapos,psbib,pin,presp,qlt,ncr,mesnbib,den n,runyon,wtc,detr,upboverbib,varstg,horyd,hawp,suffrg
My computer's paste function wouldn't operate when I had the cc.com URL window open. Help me, Tim and Jon!
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Erden, if you're counting, here's my vote:
Don't rename the route. The relative confusion it would create, the controversy over which name to use in any future guides to the area, would not convey the honor and respect to Göran (hey, the copy and paste thing worked!) that you (we) are trying to put across. Although I think your personal use of a different name is honorable, and if enough people agree with you, then the new name will catch on.
Carve the memorial at the base of the climb. Sure it's a little scary. It ought to be. Some of you sportos must also have climbed Rainier, or other peaks with history of numerous fatalities, and been aware that X number of people have died on the same route you are now climbing. In my opinion it's better to know than to be in a state of denial.
I didn't know Göran, but I think he'd want us to keep climbing, keep enjoying life; accommodate the fear, and see if we can put it into context so we enjoy our own lives all the more with the time we have.
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Uh oh, Goat Boy's on to me...
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I'm going to look at the map to see where these other traverses start and finish. If the Blue Glacier is remote, then Dodwell-Rixon pass and the Queets basin must be even more so. Mikebell, do you mean crossing Glacier Pass and heading out the Queets or Elwha? Either way it's got to be 50 miles or so.
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TG, I confess I was a little shocked to see you advocate free soloing as a way to advance one's climbing skills, but this advice in the context of the thread I would not consider irresponsible. The thread was for the purpose of soliciting different opinions from a wide range of people, and the poster did not come across as a completely gullible newbie, ready to blindly follow bad advice. I hate to think that anyone would take up free soloing just because someone in this forum suggested it. I guess I presume we're all adults and capable of making our own decisions. These days people get criticized for making that assumption, but to single out your reply as irresponsible, considering some of what gets posted here, is a little off base in my opinion. That being said, I generally agree with the viewpoints of Peter Puget, and I believe that further dialogue on this subject would be worthy.
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Thanks, Goat Boy. If I have any regrets about our fast and light approach, it's that we didn't allow the time to stop and admire all those monster trees. If you're going to be a Douglas Fir for 1000 years, the Hoh valley is a good place to be one.
I was doing the math last night on a 14 hour round trip. Since there are approximately 38 trail miles in there, not counting the climb itself, at 3 miles per hour the hike alone would take almost 14 hours. To give yourself a reasonable 7 hours to get up and down the mountain, you'd have to average 6 mph, or a 10 minute per mile pace, for 38 miles, not counting the climb itself. I'd like to shake the hand of the person who did that! I'd also bet that he/she had the luxury of snow cover on the lower Blue Glacier. We crossed on hard blue ice. Still, it was cool to explore the ablation zone of a big glacier in the fall. Not many crevasses, but there sure were some scary sinkholes where the surface melt had found its way down deep. I couldn't see the bottom of a single one-- not that I got too close to the edge to try. As PP said, if you fell in you'd need more than a rope, you'd need scuba gear.
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Olympus in a day! We came, we saw, we conked out! (Actually PP didn't conk out until the drive home.) No, we were not trying to set a speed record, just setting a challenging objective. I would not have beat on myself that hard just for the sake of bragging rights. During those last 9 miles I was asking myself why I did join this crazy scheme, since at that moment I was feeling the worst of it. But today I have no problem remembering why. Strange, how those unpleasant sensations of pain and exhaustion manage to fit themselves into an overall pleasant context, once the whole thing is over. Now I remember the moonlight on the peak, dawn breaking over us, and the elation of rounding that last rock shoulder to the summit, and the effort it took to get there and back lends those memories more gravity.
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Thanks, Ryland and Eric, for sharing your opinions with the rest of us. You too, Chuck. Dissent is good. Legitimate exchange of ideas redeems this forum.
Now, my 2 cents about cell phones: when you're sharing a physical space with others, then forcing them to listen to your private conversation is a violation. It's basic anthropology: it breaks certain unwritten social rules. The more people spend their lives in their cars, on the phone, AT THE COMPUTER, the more the culture seems to be forgetting ancient guidelines of human interaction. We're still 98 per cent chimpanzees, and we should not be so casual about ignoring the chimpanzee rules. If you stand next to me and talk loudly to your invisible companion, gleefully ignoring my presence while simultaneously making it impossible for me to ignore yours, it's a gesture not to far removed from the
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. I hope to escape this very thing in the mountains, so if you care about your inner chimpanzee, please refrain from social calls when on a climb. -
The glacier itself is pretty low angle, though sure to be somewhat icy at this time of year. I would bet there's not much snow left on the remainder, at least if you're heading up the saddle between Deception and the Needles. You could always try those instep crampons-- I just picked up a pair, pretty cheap and lighter than the full set, though I haven't tried them out yet.
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The five miles to Austin Pass from Lake Ann will feel mighty long to you. I haven't done the Sulphide but I bet it's easier to stay on route descending the Chimneys. Finding the start is probably the only tricky part. The illustration in Beckey, which I thought beforehand showed the whole chimney system, actually shows only the very start as seen from half a mile beyond Lake Ann. Once you get that far it should be straightforward. I'm all for doing such climbs in a day, but you'd be in the dark a good amount of the time, so be prepared, although hiking out from Lake Ann at night is no big deal.
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Happy Birthday to Allison! Many happy returns of the day!
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Happy Birthday to Allison! Many happy returns of the day!
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Sign me up. I've read the self-rescue book and practiced a few of the knots, but I need more realistic practice if I'm going to remember the details.
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Great thread! Man, you brought back some memories! Before I ever climbed rock, I was a surfer-- I grew up by the beach in San Diego, started surfing at age 9, could walk (a long way) to the beach, and started getting indoctrinated into the culture of localism the moment I arrived. I dreamed about being a climber, but couldn't walk or skateboard to any bouldering spots, and had to remain content taking my life in my hands on the crumbling shale bluffs above Blacks beach (I remember some really terrifying cliff-climbing incidents, including watching a friend who I had enticed up a "shortcut" slip at the crux and bounce fifty feet to the wave-washed rocks, fortunately without serious injury.)
Although I agree with the parallels you draw between the two pursuits, I am relieved that climbers usually have a more benevolent attitude. It may not be that climbers are better human beings-- imagine if the best routes were only "in" for ten or twenty days a year, and if all climbers had only a ten-second window to get on the rock every hour. Climbers might not remain so civil to one another.
I have pages more to say, but I'm at work and gotta go. You should write an article!
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allison, don't let Trask get to you. Trask, I just blew the whistle on your post. Uh oh, you're in trouble now.
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I've been up to Royal Basin once, up the Dose twice, Del Monte Ridge/ Mt. Mystery, all in midsummer, and I have had sunny days every time. I have had bad weather in Avalanche Canyon, but good weather there also. It's true that the "rain shadow" just lowers the precipitation, while the clouds remain-- Port Townsend apparently gets only 15 inches of precip. a year, but it's gray there almost all the time. No place in the Northwest is a sure thing for nice weather. I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for Olympus on the 21st.
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Thanks, that's just what I wanted to know. Now I just have to decide whether to spring for a pair of plastics as well as my tele boots, or trade in my tele gear completely. I must say I enjoy skinning up those long moderate slopes. Who has an opinion about split boards? (Or maybe I'll just start a whole new topic.)
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That's exactly what I was wondering, but I don't know how to email him directly. Mike G, are you listening?
Wilderness First Aid
in Climber's Board
Posted
I am a doctor myself, but I also got WFR and wilderness EMT training while in med school, because otherwise I wasn't going to get any specific training in pre-hospital care. There are a few basic principles that everyone in the backcountry should know, mainly about basic assessment of a person's airway, keeping the cervical spine stable if possible, stabilization of fractured extremities,etc. These are likely to be more useful than CPR (since if an accident victim in the backcountry is needing CPR, they're as good as dead already). WFR training is probably the most reasonable way to acquire these skills. Hard to know if first aid is more important than the self-rescue skills that were discussed on a different thread a few months back-- both are the sort of skills we all should have, but I bet most climbers (except professional guides) are not going to have this broad an experience.