viktor

I can split hairs, too. Sir Donald isn't in the Rockies either. If I were you, I'd start with Sir Donald (can be done in a day). Bugaboo East is even less committing but requires more time (usually spent waitng for weather). You tick 2 of the remaining 4 and you're a big hitter. Check out the east ridge of Edith Cavell, an unsung classic 5.4 on solid quartzite that may have a bit of easy snow/ice near the top. Almost as good as Sir Donald.

the original asthetic as I know it is this: DDD was originally toproped extensively to wire the moves, ALL the gear was preplaced, including at least 2 pitons that were removed afterwards. Sound familiar? Sport climbing was just becoming more accepted back then but it was still new so those guys didn't add bolts for whatever reason: the expense, the effort of hand-drilling or the moral dilemma. Regardless, the first ascenders gave their blessing for the retro. Many of us were consulted beforehand as well. The guys that did the job are experienced, well-respected PNW climbers and smart enough to know better than jump into this pointless debate. That's all I know. Happy 4th to all.

Calm down everyone. No one is advocating a bolted rappel line on Snow Creek. I think we all agree that is absurd. Someone did in fact place 2 bolts on Library Ledge some years ago and were promptly removed. Beside Condor, where is the overbolted plague exactly? Is it overbolting or overdeveloping? The Skaha bluffs saw 500 routes go in in a few years. What about Vantage? It's already a quarry, so it doesn't count? Leavenworth sees less than 20 or less new routes per year (over the last 10 years)Retrobolting is a different issue entirely. Obviously, I have my own interests at stake, but I get tired of these gloom and doom blanket statements of the deterioration of our "sense of adventure". We're talking about cragging, not mountaineering. I agree that bigger climbs like Snow Creek Wall are the exception, they have history and shouldn't be messed with. Placing a bolt is not "easy", physically or psychologically. Chopping, while sometimes justified (like Library Ledge) makes me queasy. Threats are just macho stupidity. Anger tends to cloud one's judgement. I know this much: If we didn't clean and bolt new routes around here, there wouldn't be any new routes worth doing. That is the bottom line. Somebody prove me wrong. Note to Caveman: Please contact me before you start cranking out bolts. I can connect you with the DDD crew (Who's Aaron?). No matter what you think, they did consider their acts beforehand and there was discussion. Let's discuss some more before we go crazy. You have my address. As for the rest of you: Go climbing! Or back to more pertinent topics like burger joints and Bobbi's tits.

some associates of mine have been investigating a new 4-pitch line to the left of Orbit. The bulk of the climb follows a beautiful golden slab. They have abandoned the idea, basically, there are just too many "blank" sections and they have heard negative feedback for a long sport route there. We still couldn't really figure out where those old routes like Chtong really go. Anyone know or care? The funny thing is that some people were pleased to hear a "rappel route" was going in. Huh? Who would want to make 4 or 5 double rappels when you can scramble off in half an hour? Climbers bred in city gyms just don't get that intangible resourcefulness that being in the mountains brings. The route on Condor has already seen some near epics and one rescue cuz people just don't know how to hike anymore. 6 parties in a day on that route? Scary! I hope they brought helmets. Anyway, the descent off Snow Creek is nothing compared to 6 pitches of class 5 climbing. If it's that brutal for ya, bring a hang glider or stick to the roadside stuff. Nothing personal here, I've just heard way too many complaints about the descent. I like the idea of a 2-mile long waterslide that takes you right to the parking lot.

Today's Leavenworth Echo reports "numerous" car break-ins at Johnny Creek/Eight-Mile on June 9th. The scumbags may still be around. A word of warning if you're camping around here.

Ah, Hyperhound. Of all the routes I've cleaned those slab routes on Dog Dome are as good as any in the Icicle (for slab routes). Unfortunately, they are also growing back. I think the fire may have upset the ecological balance there or something cuz other climbs stay clean regardless of how much traffic they get. I guess I better quit exploring in my old age and just go back to being a full-time Custodian of the Icicle, kinda like your friendly campground hosts.

I think we originally thought it was 10c, can't remember why we lowered it to 10a but it seems the last I did it (been a few years) 10a seemed right. a friend of mine said he struggled on it recently which he shouldn't have. I don't know, what do you think it's rated? on any given day, I guess it can feel easy or hard. I'd like to hear from someone who's done the potato chip flake. The only guy I know of is Geoff Scherer, I don't recall if he actually finished it or bailed, but I do remember him saying it was really scary. I think Yoder did the first cuz he mentioned the 5.8 corner above.

picked up the book the other day. I wanted to see what routes I climbed at Banks Lake. I still am not sure. Is Gibrater Rock on the turnoff to Northup Canyon? Been up there a few times and it a unique spot. Too bad the author couldn't get any cooperation from one of the most active guys. Makes no sense to me. Why clean and bolt routes if you don't want to share the info? I can tell you from personal experience that the schmoe that put up those routes will scream the loudest when his routes are shown somehow incorrectly. Note to Marty: Good effort on the book, ignore the low blows sure to come, I feel your pain.

Mitch, Haven't been up there since all the activity. I hear that Sole Kitchen & Chiltins were retro-cleaned & bolted? I spoke to 2 guys recently who said they knew of a route near there called Cricket. That could be it. There are a couple of locals working on routes right of Condor but other than that I know what you know.

The routes in question are Keen Acres (5.9), the middle one, and Inverted Firkin (5.8), to the right. I think Keen Acres is excellent and highly recommend it. 100 feet long, has a few bolts and good gear. You can stroll over from Off Duty in 10 minutes. We placed chains at the belay last week or so. Any comments?

This list comes from the 1996 guide. Any newer routes you may know of can be added and any other comments also. I am just looking for consensus on ratings and quality. Let's use the 5 star system as in the book. Feel free to delete or ignore entries that you have no firsthand knowledge of. Also, a better e-mail address for me is kramar@tumwater.net. I'll process the data at some point and post any results of interest. Thanks for helping.

Right on-will do that. I have the files at home so It'll be later. It will be the route list from the last guidebook is all and people can toss in their 2 cents. More recent routes can be addressed separately. I suppose I can let a few more out of the bag here soon. Anyone done those new ones just off the road on Icicle Buttress?

anyone know how I can post a word file that y'all can download and add your comments to? I can e-mail one too if I had your address.

what wuz I thinking? Maybe Givlers crack would be the ticket here.

not really multi-pitch but lots of 5.6 & 5.7 bolted routes at Skaha might fit the bill. Great place for family-type relaxin' beaches, etc. & canadian dollar perks. Isn't there like a climbing festival there soon or something?

Thanks again. I'd like to be more objective on the stars but it's kinda tough. I'll hear people rave about some climb that was just awesome and then someone else will tell me it's a pile. I can add my own opinion but it's not always the consensus. If anyone is interested in helping me out send me a private message. I can forward a route list and y'all can note your star and skull opinions and send it back. It may be more fun to just keep posting when you feel an injustice has occured. A friendly debate could help narrow things down. Many climbs with no stars just means I don't know. I'm not hauling my lard-ass up too many desperates these days anyway so I would appreciate any input as always. Yeah, I lived in Kelowna back then and put in a route or 2. And Classic is 5.8 I guess, a long standing argument. Let's hear more.

AlpineK, check the book. Easter Overhang has 2 stars (should be 3) but no skulls. Zup? Thanks for the iconoclast beta, duly noted and will be fixed. Thanks and keep 'em coming.

if you mean the mole group as your "moderates", the north face of the Mole is a classic 500 ft of 5.7 or so. Personally, I prefer the approach to Edward Mesa up Hook creek. A death march perhaps but very direct and should take anywhere from 5 to 8 hours depending. I like Toketie for the descent.

I am gearing up for a new guidebook to Leavenworth probably by early 2003. If anyone has some input I'd love to hear it. New routes especially, opinions too, but hold the death threats, please. By the way, if Condor Buttress has too many bolts for you, may I suggest a 7-pitch link-up that goes up Duty Dome and Warrior Wall. Heart of Gold is a 4-pitch slab easily visible from the road. It wanders up some pretty nice rock to the top of Duty from where you can jump on Prime Rib 3 pitches to the top of Warrior. You can walk/scramble off either climb. The pitches are 5.8,5.5,5.10-,5.9+,5.9,5.10b,5.9. Nice outing and bring a small rack. Enjoy.

point taken on the snow creek topo, caveman. It needs to be more legible. sorry about the jeff comment. just a weak attempt at humor.

Thanks for your comments, Jeff. The topos are the about as good as my limited abilities can scratch out but I realize that photos of the crags is the way to go. The next edition will have crag photos along with some topos. The binding problem has been fixed in the last 2 printings (you must have an old one). Hopefully, the next book will be an improvement and will be as well received as Washington Rock.

The guy on icicle buttress was on the chimney pitch of the R&D route (or off route), apparently fell, broke his jaw and sustained other non-fatal injuries. Glad to hear he'll recover but I saw some pretty distraught folks over there and thought someone had bought it for sure.

just for the record, I think that pimp slap thing is the one I saw Mr Cilley climb in the early 90s. As I recall it had a slopey finish that gave him the most trouble. Dick is a different kinda guy, colorful and all that but calling him an asshole is really unfair.

I heard that the climber in question rapped off his rope (one end was too short) he fell 20 feet and broke his leg. Apparently, he was an experienced climber and felt pretty humiliated about the whole ordeal. After this last weekend, that makes four accidents up the Icicle in the last 2 weeks. What gives? Aid vehicles passed me on Icicle Road on Saturday and on Sunday, there was definately a serious incident on Icicle Buttress. It appears the Mountaineers were involved, but I'm not sure.

sorry, but you're out of luck on the Edge. Yoder originally led this onsite (impressive) but couldn't drill til he did the crux. These were pretty funky bolts, too. In fact, when he came back years later with his girlfriend she popped off and decked, breaking her ankle. He talked to Briody about it and Gordon retroed it. No matter what you or I may think, chopping the bolts will just trash the rock, stir up petty controversy and insult the local climbers who have volunteered their time and money in the stewardship of their local crags. Personally, I'm not sure about this, I'm sorry that someone's experience was ruined. This forum is a great way to communicate that and other routes that have been retroed have had some feedback before the fact. Let's keep talking - the last thing we need are ugly bolt wars like those chumps in Colorado or Connecticut seem to enjoy.