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Peter_Puget

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Posts posted by Peter_Puget

    New Route Ethics in Leavenworth

    in Climber's Board

    Posted

    Szy -

    Thanks for your reply. I don't really know Viktor but in our few passing interactions he seemed like a nice guy. I am not for the needless bolting of cracks either. I get tired of the antibolter particularly the noisemakers making all kinds of BS assunptions regarding peoples motivations and just spewing forth invective. Was the route bolted to sell more books or is there a less sinister explanation? Does it really matter? Sending him an email and explaing your point of view seems far more productive than watching the noise flare up - particularly if one side has already tuned out. You want to know why they are becoming more prevelant - find out who is doing it and asking them.

     

    Dwayner -

    Ouch!

     

    PP

    New Route Ethics in Leavenworth

    in Climber's Board

    Posted

    Dwayner -

     

    I will assume it's the jet lag talking as your response was so pitiful but also revealing. You evidently see no reason to enter into a friendly discussion but would rather just be "noise" to use your own words. Glad you are finally admitting what I have said all along: you are just full of senseless chatter. Now you admit the strategy - make noise, make a fuss and hey - "the man" will come in on your side. How can you loose? Poor Pitiful Professor I don't argue that its been ineffective but rather its of neglible efficacy when compared to the more congenial alternatives. While not a "pop pyschologist" either by vocation or recreation, I would hazard that your "noise" is reflective of a parsimony of spirit and would suggest that over time being negative is harder than being constructive.

     

    Since the DDD thread what has happened? Well? Sounds like some are claiming quite alot! And it's not what you wanted.

     

    Well I am off to the climbing gym got to beat the crowds you know!

     

    Still have a hug for you Dwayner.

     

    Come and get it. [Roll Eyes]

     

    PP

    New Route Ethics in Leavenworth

    in Climber's Board

    Posted

    Dwayner –

     

    The Erik you “like” must be the one that agrees with you! But Erik is right your behavior and some others here on this site has betrayed the fact that you would all rather flash a cutting remark than seek a solution to a problem. As such your actions do take “away from contructive thinking in this situation.” Of course to the extent they do that you are no different from and perhaps worse than those you criticize.

     

    Kenny G wasn't mentioned because he is eternal!

     

    Still giving hugs!

     

    PP

    Parents' Nightmare

    in Climber's Board

    Posted

    Dwayner you are out of touch with modern sport climbing. I'd hope the younger one would also show an interest and then try to turn them into the equivlalent of Serena and Venus Willaims. Then I'd sit back and watch the money pour in.

     

    They'd be team Ingersol-Rand!!!

    New Route Ethics in Leavenworth

    in Climber's Board

    Posted

    Ole friend Dwayner -

     

    Certainly you know I have been very consistant regarding this and my prescription for the cure. How useful was all that vitriol? Appearently not very. It just drives a wedge between people preventing beneficial discourse. Those who just want to enjoy a fight or scream loudly rant like the DDD debate. Those who care to create change reach out to one another with a friendly hand.

     

    So...big hug Dwayner! [big Grin]

     

    PP

    New Route Ethics in Leavenworth

    in Climber's Board

    Posted

    OK Can’t resist this topic after all. Must be Monday I don’t want to work time!

     

    Basically – I agree bolted cracks are a NO! NO!

     

    Quotes and comments follow:

     

    Quote from SZY –

    “Likewise old schoolers (with a loss of adventure I guess) are continually placing bolts near cracks and gear placements in a quest for making new routes in order to speed up the need for new editions of guidebooks…”

     

    Am I correct in concluding that this is a indirect way of saying that Viktor is a crack bolter. If so, have you discussed this issue with him. What was his response? If not why slam him publicly without first giving him the courtesy of a direct discussion?

     

    Quote from Retro-

    “I think that public humiliation may be the solution. If anyone claims these prizes they can be blacklisted and have feces flung at them when they are sighted at the crags”

     

    Hasn’t kept you from posting.

     

    Quote from Haireball -

    “new-age sport-route = bolt ladder = why bother?”

     

    Certainly you must not be serious or your experience with sport routes is quite limited. Go try Roothless (sp?) on the Drip wall and tell me it’s the same as climbing a bolt ladder.

     

    Quote from - dberdinka

    “While I did not climb any of them, one appears to have 3 bolts spaced out along a 10’ crack and a bolt every 4’ beyond that. This route was mentioned recently on this site but I was surprised to see that it still existed.”

     

    How bad is the problem. How many bolts have been placed next to protectable cracks? How many routes? Last year RafaelH asked people to list the names of routes bolted when good crack protection was available. Very few routes where on the list. I don’t think this one was on it but was it bolted at that time? I seem to think so. If new routes are springing up despite continued debate on this site how effective is the debate? Have you made an attempt to contact Viktor and have him pass word to the FA party word of your concerns?

     

    Quote from -Gregw –

    “A generation of climbers is being brought up, or introduced to climbing, in the relative safety of the climbing gym. Thus, "badass" gym climbers make the move outdoors without the benefit of an education in style and ethics, or with ethics and style jaded by the safe bolt locations on indoor lead climbs.”

     

    Seems like most of the questionable routes in the Icicle are actually at the lower end of the difficulty scale. Not something a “Badass” would aspire to. Do you know who is putting these routes up or are their genrational and gym status determined merely armchair/pub club reasoning?

     

    Quote from glen

    “If anyone has questions on the ethics of that, jst go back to the Beckey guides.”

     

    The Leavenworth guide (old orange paperback) and the old Index guide both discuss unethical behavior by climbers. Not just bolting but pin placement too. Seems like a settled issue wouldn’t be brought up in two consecutive decades! Go read Mountain 63? (the Squamish issue) and find out more about Beckey and bolts.

    The origination of "trad" vs. "sport" climbers

    in Climber's Board

    Posted

    The whole Trad vs. Sport thing and usually defined is pretty much the construction of marketing types. I would say that a better distinction between trad and sport isn't wilderness v. gym, or bolts v. trad pro. but rather how they envision climbs. EG: a mutual friend of Off White and myself was around last summer and while he was here we pretty much climbed bolt protected routes. Yet he wouldn't get on any route that just ended in space. That is the route must have a logical/aesthetic finish (no lower off from a blank spot)or he wouldn't touch it. It didn't matter how fun the move would be. This to me pretty much sums up the real difference between sport and trad. climbing.

     

    PP

    Black Dyke FREE!

    in British Columbia/Canada

    Posted

    Actually Cavey You'd be down for sure! Down on the ground with your jaw open in astonishment. Anyway you slice it hanging on thru that roof is an amazing thing. Certainly the route more impressive as a free route than an loose funky aid one. I remember Eric Wienstien once telling me that anyone can climb 5.11. This was back when there were very few 5.12s. I wonder what he'd have thought of 5.13! [big Grin][Cool][smile][Wink][Razz][geek][laf]

     

    [ 06-11-2002, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

    Black Dyke FREE!

    in British Columbia/Canada

    Posted

    Thought this guy deserved a thread of its own.

     

    Posted on another thread by Travis!:------------------------Limestone sporto cliff eh? How about basalt? Talked to a guy at Murrin Sunday who just climbed the Black Dyke...Free. Free at last, bolted all the way with the possibility of aiding the 5.12 and 5.13 pitches on bolts.

     

    Now that's a sport climb!

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